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Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

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Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#51

Post by droithomme »

criddell wrote: post #44
rootusrootus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a problem with the recent practice of using innocuous places like ancestry.com as a tool to find murderers through their familial relationships. Definitely I think we need to see some more regulation there. But, as a separate issue, when there is enough evidence to convince a judge to sign a warrant, I do not have an objection to exhuming a body. I have to trust the judicial system to handle this sanely.

What are the downsides of using databases like ancestry.com to solve crimes?

Forensic testing of DNA looks at 13 positions. 9 out of 13 is considered a match.

When you match against a very large database using such a small number of polymorphisms, you get many matches.

Detectives then take that list and look for people who lived sort of in the crime area. The matches who don't happen to have an alibi they can prove for a crime sometimes decades ago are then deemed "guilty".

It's complete pseudoscience.

If they did a full DNA sequence and matched that, sure. But they never do.

Also there is the problem that many DNA samples contain DNA from multiple individuals, in which the match can be assembled piecemeal. This completely destroys the statistical validity.

DNA forensics are absolute pseudoscience. Any court case relying on DNA should be discarded by the jury.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#52

Post by ebg13 »

carbocation wrote: post #33
ebg13 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state has decided that you don't need to be informed in advance that a warrant will let them search through your things. The whole point of a warrant is that it lets them search. "I didn't know they could look inside my bag" isn't a legal defense.

You're talking about malum prohibitum and I'm talking about malum in se .

I don't understand. Are you saying that it's wrong for the state to grant search warrants in the course of investigating murders? Because it seems to me that the alternative is that then all one needs to do to never be convicted of a crime is to just not consent to being investigated. So which is the lesser problem, invading privacy with a warrant or never being able to prosecute any crimes?

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#53

Post by carbocation »

ebg13 wrote: post #52
carbocation wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about malum prohibitum and I'm talking about malum in se .

I don't understand. Are you saying that it's wrong for the state to grant search warrants in the course of investigating murders? Because it seems to me that the alternative is that then all one needs to do to never be convicted of a crime is to just not consent to being investigated. So which is the lesser problem, invading privacy with a warrant or never being able to prosecute any crimes?

Are you replying with questions that imply I said something that I never said?

Edit: At the time of my reply, the prior post read (in its entirety): I don't understand. Are you saying that it's wrong for the state to grant search warrants in the course of investigating murders?

I won't be replying to further posts in this thread.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#54

Post by dd36 »

mikeash wrote: post #4
verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? I see no problem with exhuming a corpse to solve a murder case as long as there’s probable cause and a warrant, which there was here.

Well, could they sue your estate or assets that were inherited by your family?

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#56

Post by duxup »

verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

I would worry about a mistake.

If the dna match comes back as a match, is anyone going to disbelieve some super cool CSI stuff?

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#57

Post by alasdair_ »

thrower123 wrote: post #32
skookumchuck wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you take a life you forfeit any more rights you have When you're convicted of it. Not before. > bring closure This seems to be a very recent thing. First off, I don't think the justice system is meant to "bring closure" to the victims, whatever that means. And secondly, if someone close to me was murdered, I seriously doubt that "closure" would make me feel any better about it.

It's also veering very close to vengeance. And if that's what the people want, then, what the hell, let's bring back hangings in the town square, so they can get the satisfaction of seeing the murderer swing after trial, and cut out the 20-50 years of keeping them in prison.

And if they ever get it wrong, do we get to hang the jury, judge and prosecutor for murder too?

You get a hanging! And you get a hanging! And YOU get a hanging!

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#58

Post by dontbenebby »

verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

>I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things that would contain DNA to add people to databases. Such arguments are usually emotional

It's also "emotional" to not want your remains to be compared to a serial killer's DNA.

There is admittedly a property rights argument to be made. (In a way, your decendants have the "rights" to your remains, displayed in the manner you bequeathed them, traditionally a cemetery plot in western cultures.)

But it's even more emotional to have attachment to random bits of litter.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#59

Post by vkou »

mikeash wrote: post #4
verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? I see no problem with exhuming a corpse to solve a murder case as long as there’s probable cause and a warrant, which there was here.

> If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains?

Because our society believes in body autonomy, to the point that it won't use your body's organs to save other human beings, without your express consent.

Your body is your property, and it takes a damn good reason for someone else to access your property, contrary to your will.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#60

Post by macinjosh »

thrax wrote: post #45

Quelle surprise.. another military/police type.. just like EAR/ONS... Seems like we could save some time and just check dna against known mil/police dna first.

I agree. If you’re going to be a police officer we should use all means necessary to ensure you’re not a rapist/murderer. Seems like a low bar to me.
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