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“Python's batteries are leaking”

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Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#211

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

bsder wrote: post #207
dragonwriter wrote: post #106

Note that similar issues were raised with Ruby stdlib, which is being addressed in part with “Gemification” of stdlib, so that all of stdlib (targeted for 3.0, though it's been going on since 2.4)[0] is being moved out to externally-updatable packages that are included by default (default and bundled gems), so that it is still “batteries included” but the batteries are at least replaceable. Amber's suggestion seems t…

Python cannot be atomized effectively, and the issue is political. The problem is that I cannot count on being able to install new software in many environments. If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Consequently, the standard libraries need to be very com…

> If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever.

Can you explain this more? What kind of place do you work? I've had some experience with large, bureaucratic companies, but nothing ever so far as "you can't install any other libraries."

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#212

Post by sgustard »

CodiePetersen wrote: post #167

I like python, its a nice simple language that you can use to pump out a proof of concept real quick with little hassle, but for full on production I avoid it. But I think this is a larger trend in programming, in my opinion the majority of programmers are super lazy. Everyone is in a mad dash to get the cool new thing out so they just slap a bunch of dependencies on it and damn the consequences of developer debt dow…

If a programmer is lazy, forcing him to use Java or C++ isn't going to fix it. And I've seen good developers ship plenty of quality code in Python or Ruby.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#213

Post by ma2rten »

alexdong wrote: post #109
tptacek wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "embrace PyPI and move things like asyncio there" not a constructive suggestion, or is she sort of being penalized because the most reasonable solution to the problem can be described in less than half a sentence so it's seems like there's more complaint than solution?

Yup. Totally agree with you on that. And yes this one is a constructive proposal. My problem is on the like part. Where shall we draw the line and how do we decide? To me this is a far more interesting discussion. (Maybe it has happened. I don’t go to many conferences these days so I might be missing something here. ) She mentioned http.client vs requests, datetime vs. moments etc, which are also quite correct to me.…

Actually I feel like asyncio is the one thing that should be part of the standard library. It even introduces special syntax.

To be honest, I think she might be biased here given that she maintains a competing package.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#214

Post by dforrestwilson »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #211
bsder wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python cannot be atomized effectively, and the issue is political. The problem is that I cannot count on being able to install new software in many environments. If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Consequently, the standard libraries need to be very com…

> If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Can you explain this more? What kind of place do you work? I've had some experience with large, bureaucratic companies, but nothing ever so far as "you can't install any other libraries."

Maybe just me but sometimes after initial install l, I later find a weird non-standard library that I need to do something.

At which point you have to scale the IT wall all over again if you work at a Fortune 500 company.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#215

Post by dwaltrip »

CodiePetersen wrote: post #167

I like python, its a nice simple language that you can use to pump out a proof of concept real quick with little hassle, but for full on production I avoid it. But I think this is a larger trend in programming, in my opinion the majority of programmers are super lazy. Everyone is in a mad dash to get the cool new thing out so they just slap a bunch of dependencies on it and damn the consequences of developer debt dow…

"Laziness" is a terrible explanation for broad system characteristics, such as the fact that many software people end up building messy MVPs.

If an explanation boosts your ego, there is a decent chance it is flawed or incomplete.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#216

Post by ringshall »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #211
bsder wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python cannot be atomized effectively, and the issue is political. The problem is that I cannot count on being able to install new software in many environments. If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Consequently, the standard libraries need to be very com…

> If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Can you explain this more? What kind of place do you work? I've had some experience with large, bureaucratic companies, but nothing ever so far as "you can't install any other libraries."

At least in some places, local install permission may be available, but cross company install permission is much more difficult to get.

As in, it is very difficult to get software installed in general images or on multiuser servers.

There are obviously good reasons for it to be conservative about this.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#219

Post by inoop »

dforrestwilson wrote: post #214
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Can you explain this more? What kind of place do you work? I've had some experience with large, bureaucratic companies, but nothing ever so far as "you can't install any other libraries."

Maybe just me but sometimes after initial install l, I later find a weird non-standard library that I need to do something. At which point you have to scale the IT wall all over again if you work at a Fortune 500 company.

> At which point you have to scale the IT wall all over again if you work at a Fortune 500 company.

I work at a Fortune 500 company, and the only wall I have to scale when I want to use a library that nobody at our company has ever used before, is to get someone to check and approve the license (typically takes 1-2 days), and import it into our code repos.

I mean I see your point, but not everywhere is as bad as you make it seem.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#220

Post by Aeolun »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #211
bsder wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python cannot be atomized effectively, and the issue is political. The problem is that I cannot count on being able to install new software in many environments. If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Consequently, the standard libraries need to be very com…

> If I fight the battle to get centralized IT to install Python, I now have a guaranteed set of standard libraries as well. I'm never going to get permission to install anything other than default. Ever. Can you explain this more? What kind of place do you work? I've had some experience with large, bureaucratic companies, but nothing ever so far as "you can't install any other libraries."

As far as I understand this. It’s something like “You can install whatever libraries you want, but we’ll only ever install default python on user PC’s”
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