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“Python's batteries are leaking”

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Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#31

Post by rightbyte »

resoluteteeth wrote: post #9

When I first used python like 20 years ago I was blown away by how much functionality was blown in, and it can be annoying using languages where even the most basic functionality involves downloading 50 packages from the internet, but on the other hand the standard library does seem to be a mess now.

When I first touched Python I had only used C. Is your story similair?

Had I been using Java or Visual Basic or even C++ proirly maybe I wouldn't be so impressed as I were.

I think the mistake Python is doing is messing with it's simplicity with decorations, halfass lambdas and stuff. As a newbie you could understand Python code, while eg. C++ templates were magic. You need to know more Python to understand Python code nowadays.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#32

Post by nicoburns »

resoluteteeth wrote: post #24
new4thaccount wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea. I'm using Rust at the moment for fun and the amount of things not in the standard library is crazy to me. What? There is no built-in dictionary? What do I use instead and where is it? Edit: based off of all the replies below, everyone understands the validity of what I'm trying to say, but also have fortunately pointed out my admittedly grevious error of not knowing you can just import hashmap from stdlib. The e…

Yeah Rust is pretty extreme. I was just trying to generate a random number in it and was pretty surprised to find out that at some point it did have this functionality in the standard library but they actually removed it and now it's a separate crate.

That is actually being considered for inclusion at some point. It was mainly excluded due it not being ready and them not wanting to commit to the existing API. That said, I like the Rust way. Including a library is pretty easy, and it mains you get the best API as the main one (rather than a stdlib function that is "good enough", and another library to use if you really care about that functionality).

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#33

Post by eikenberry »

jteppinette wrote: post #12

> six is non-optional for writing code for Python 2 and 3 I maintain a Python 2 & 3 compatible project that has no external dependencies.

Same here, though mine is a small project. I'd guess six probably becomes more useful when you starting hitting certain features/areas of the language. I'd be curious about what things make six start being useful.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#34

Post by dpkp »

jteppinette wrote: post #12

> six is non-optional for writing code for Python 2 and 3 I maintain a Python 2 & 3 compatible project that has no external dependencies.

have you written your own 2/3 compatibility layer? I can't imagine writing anything large without six...

fwiw, six can easily be vendored into a project to avoid the technical external dependency. that is how we manage it for kafka-python.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#35

Post by geofft »

pavlov wrote: post #8
axaxs wrote: post #2

Why, time and time again, does Guido seem incapable of reasonable debate, or ideas that challenge his own? It's completely rude to interrupt a presenter with 'what is your point?' Years ago I was in contact with the author of Nuitka, who was very excited to share his work thus far. During his presentation, Guido kept huffing and making snide comments under his breath. All because he disagrees with the premise behind…

Maybe he’s simply burnt out? The pressure of being in charge of something as big as Python must be intense. People make demands on his time and expect the “benevolent dictator” to cunningly solve everything like a modern day Salomon. I know he gave up the title, but as he personifies Python, I imagine the influx of requests for his attention may not have subsided much.

Nobody required him to be in charge of Python. Nobody required him to personify Python. Plenty of languages have succeeded without their creators handling every little detail, from C to JavaScript to PHP to Java.

A core skill of any open-source project maintainer is recognizing when you're burnt out enough that your continued presence isn't helping the community and is just getting in the way of others, and stepping aside. If you can't do this, you're not a good maintainer. I'm happy to have sympathy for your personal problems, but you're still failing at your job. Here, for instance, is a short but effective way to do it: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-August/0054... (That was almost two years before Rust reached 1.0, and the language hasn't suffered one bit for it.)

And part of Amber's point is that core Python development is taking on too many burdens for no actual benefit. By bundling so much in the standard library and expecting the standard library to be usable for real work without installing additional packages, the core team (and Guido in particular) increases their own workload, impedes the ability of others to contribute, and produces worse results for end users than they would otherwise.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#36

Post by zzzeek »

pavlov wrote: post #8
axaxs wrote: post #2

Why, time and time again, does Guido seem incapable of reasonable debate, or ideas that challenge his own? It's completely rude to interrupt a presenter with 'what is your point?' Years ago I was in contact with the author of Nuitka, who was very excited to share his work thus far. During his presentation, Guido kept huffing and making snide comments under his breath. All because he disagrees with the premise behind…

Maybe he’s simply burnt out? The pressure of being in charge of something as big as Python must be intense. People make demands on his time and expect the “benevolent dictator” to cunningly solve everything like a modern day Salomon. I know he gave up the title, but as he personifies Python, I imagine the influx of requests for his attention may not have subsided much.

On the flipside, it must be a dream to have an enormous team of hundreds, a bug tracker where new issues are triaged by eager volunteers within minutes and expertly resolved usually without your needing to be involved, a whole organization that puts on conferences for you, sysadmins creating and maintaining your entire development, testing, and release infrastructure, big companies supporting you with substantial donations....just saying Guido has a spectacular organization of hundreds of people that must be really nice to have. That you aren't directly responsible for every single detail helps a lot.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#37

Post by FranzFerdiNaN »

userbinator wrote: post #10
axaxs wrote: post #2

Why, time and time again, does Guido seem incapable of reasonable debate, or ideas that challenge his own? It's completely rude to interrupt a presenter with 'what is your point?' Years ago I was in contact with the author of Nuitka, who was very excited to share his work thus far. During his presentation, Guido kept huffing and making snide comments under his breath. All because he disagrees with the premise behind…

It seems that those programming language communities which have a more "social" aspect also tends to lead to more associated drama like this.

It's one of the things I really like about the R community. It's incredibly friendly and without egos, and has lots of people who actively work to make the community as safe and welcoming for everybody. I can't say I've ever heard about drama like this from there.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#39

Post by icegreentea2 »

rightbyte wrote: post #31
resoluteteeth wrote: post #9

When I first used python like 20 years ago I was blown away by how much functionality was blown in, and it can be annoying using languages where even the most basic functionality involves downloading 50 packages from the internet, but on the other hand the standard library does seem to be a mess now.

When I first touched Python I had only used C. Is your story similair? Had I been using Java or Visual Basic or even C++ proirly maybe I wouldn't be so impressed as I were. I think the mistake Python is doing is messing with it's simplicity with decorations, halfass lambdas and stuff. As a newbie you could understand Python code, while eg. C++ templates were magic. You need to know more Python to understand Python co…

Decorators added were in in 2004, I think lambdas were an original language feature (like... before 2004).

There are other new stuff that might be confusing to beginners (like our mighty walrus operator), but those two examples have been there for effectively forever.

Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”

#40

Post by Waterluvian »

nurettin wrote: post #14

It took me an hour to create a program that tails some logs and alerts when it doesn't receive any logs for a given amount of time. For this task I did not even need to leave the asyncio module. It lets you create subprocesses and execute call_later on the event loop in order to simulate a heartbeat while reading the output of tail at the same time. Did asyncio module feel bloated? It certainly did. It seems like eve…

Asyncio is an amazing tool that makes me not hate doing async with Python. There was quite a learning curve with the library. A lot of Lego pieces. But I found the handful I need and then learn new ones occasionally.

I think bloatedness of the stdlib isn't actually a practical problem. It's just an inelegance that you kind of have to learn to tolerate.

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