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Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

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Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#41

Post by sunir »

Fricken wrote: post #29

People are very superstitious, and quite hysterical. Google isn't building a city, they're building a neighbourhood in one small section of Toronto that most Torontonians never went to anyhow, and are under no obligation to go to after it has been rebuilt. Postwar Urban development is fucking monotonous and largely the same everywhere. We should experiment and try different things. If you don't like it, fine. Get tog…

This is an extremely bad argument. All neighbourhoods, houses, even cottage docks are controlled through planning in Ontario.

Sensible people recognize that the city will continue to exist hundreds of years into the future. We do not let any crazy person build whatever comes into their minds because failures end up being a problem for neighbours and the government ultimately to fix, which means other taxpayers.

If we don’t like it, we follow the law and complain to the planning committee. Like normal people. I don’t really get your position.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#42

Post by Fricken »

sunir wrote: post #41
Fricken wrote: post #29

People are very superstitious, and quite hysterical. Google isn't building a city, they're building a neighbourhood in one small section of Toronto that most Torontonians never went to anyhow, and are under no obligation to go to after it has been rebuilt. Postwar Urban development is fucking monotonous and largely the same everywhere. We should experiment and try different things. If you don't like it, fine. Get tog…

This is an extremely bad argument. All neighbourhoods, houses, even cottage docks are controlled through planning in Ontario. Sensible people recognize that the city will continue to exist hundreds of years into the future. We do not let any crazy person build whatever comes into their minds because failures end up being a problem for neighbours and the government ultimately to fix, which means other taxpayers. If we…

Google's plan really isn't that crazy. If all the weird things they want to do didn't work out, you'd be left with a fairly conventional neighbourhood in keeping with progressive low-car urban design principles.

It's not like Google has carte blanche to do whatever they want, they've been in ongoing consultation with city planners from the start.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#43

Post by sunir »

overkill28 wrote: post #28

Putting aside privacy for a moment, does anyone know what they're actually building? As far as I know they've sold the city on a bunch of vague "smart tech" promises without any concrete details. I have no idea what Sidewalk Labs business plan is, but it seems like a traditional business executive (Dan Doctoroff) is trying to use Google's brand to get access to cities so he can build large developments without actual…

Because it has been a smokescreen and a chaotic mess, there is no trustworthy source of information of what the plan is or the agenda. For that reason alone it should be axed.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#44

Post by sunir »

scarejunba wrote: post #25
sonnyblarney wrote: post #13

"a smart city built from the internet up " I really don't understand the appeal of statement.

* Real time additional self-driving buses responding to demand spikes. * Rubbish bins full? The city knows and sends help. * Demand pricing parking in a region I can think of a dozen ideas in seconds.

None of them are happening. What is happening is a vague statement that left a void where futurists like yourself have filled in with hype fueled imaginings of their own.

The basic economics deny all 3 of your suggestions. The TTC doesn’t have smart buses. Garbage collection is regulated through citywide contracts to private collectors who are not going to waste their own margin on off schedule collection. Same with parking, which is run through a city agency Green P that would have to adapt its systems for one neighbourhood?

While all are theoretically possible it would require a lot more economic infrastructure than one corporate neighbourhood.

So set your expectations to more mundane levels. Public wifi and surveillance cameras like in Beijing.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#45

Post by v7p1Qbt1im »

Could it be possible that Sidewalk could make money off this project and still advance city building significantly for the first time in forever? Would you rather see the the project go to another boring developer without vision? Another darb apartment park.

There is not even an actual complete proposal yet. And still, there is FUD coming in from all sides. I for one would like to see cities made for pedestrians with smart waste disposal and more interesting architecture than glass blocks.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#46

Post by alxmdev »

pxue wrote: post #19
sonnyblarney wrote: post #13

"a smart city built from the internet up " I really don't understand the appeal of statement.

where every sidewalk garbage-bin will have its own instagram fan page!

And record who throws what out, and issue ads or fines accordingly! So much room for innovation.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#47

Post by mabbo »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #14
mabbo wrote: post #9

> Sidewalk Labs, a sister company to Google, had acquired disused land in Toronto, Canada for this bold urban experiment "Disused land" is a bit disingenuous. Toronto real estate prices are very high right now and this is waterfront property. It's former industrial land we're hoping to revitalize. As far as I can tell, Google isn't doing us a favor here. They're just another developer trying to make a bunch of money…

" Google isn't doing us a favor here. They're just another developer trying to make a bunch of money off of our huge need for additional housing." Though I don't like the prospects of Google doing this, there are two issues with the comment: - Google is probably 'doing the city a favour'. Google has a gadgillion dollars we've handed to them, and their de-facto cost of capital (internally at least) is very cheap. The…

> Then why is Toronto very aggressively bringing in 100K people per year into the city

Toronto doesn't choose who comes here. It's not stealing people from around the world and forcing them to come, nor does it try to stop anyone from migrating. Toronto is just a great city and the world wants to live here. We're the most multicultural city on the planet for that reason. We're something special, and I live here in part because I celebrate that special quality.

Second, and more importantly, as you said the price of housing is a function of supply and demand. With rising demand, supply side must keep up to prevent housing prices from looking like Vancouver or San Francisco.

Where we do agree is in what should be done: zone for tall buildings and dense land use, auction the land, build as much as we can as quickly as we can.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#48

Post by alexashka »

I really wish there was a middle-way between 'let them do whatever they want' and 'let's protest and raise hysteria'.

Let's look at Downtown Toronto development over the past 10 years - condominiums built on every square inch of land that could be bought? In large part owned by people who don't plan to stay there long or even owned by a third party and rented out?

Ok, so that's what's been happening. What can Google possibly do, that is worse?

They're planning to try new things - go ahead and discuss the details you are not happy with. Just be aware of the alternative - cheap 30-40 story condominiums with 500 sq foot units, built to make a quick buck.

Re: Opposition to Sidewalk Labs in Toronto

#50

Post by wmil »

mabbo wrote: post #47
sonnyblarney wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Google isn't doing us a favor here. They're just another developer trying to make a bunch of money off of our huge need for additional housing." Though I don't like the prospects of Google doing this, there are two issues with the comment: - Google is probably 'doing the city a favour'. Google has a gadgillion dollars we've handed to them, and their de-facto cost of capital (internally at least) is very cheap. The…

> Then why is Toronto very aggressively bringing in 100K people per year into the city Toronto doesn't choose who comes here. It's not stealing people from around the world and forcing them to come, nor does it try to stop anyone from migrating. Toronto is just a great city and the world wants to live here. We're the most multicultural city on the planet for that reason. We're something special, and I live here in pa…

> We're the most multicultural city on the planet for that reason.

"Most multicultural city" a city slogan, not some sort of factual statement.

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