Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#131

Post by westmeal » Sat, May 18, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

ubercow13 wrote: post #105

skrebbel wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. It'll go like this: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Ask me when you're ready to save and I'll teach you the magic incantation. Applicant: types away If you're not able to code in what's essentially just a test box then that's a useful thin…

Have you seen some of the other comments in this thread? Seems like there's a good chance it would be more like: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: ....

vi vi vi is the number of the DEviL!

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#132

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, May 18, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #96

twelve40 wrote: post #39

> He reasoned through the problem, wrote the code, it ran perfectly the first time. I hired him. I get the overall sentiment, but come on, "I hired him" sounds like self-absorbed anecdata - so this post is about how to quickly appeal to some manager dude on the interwebs? A more useful metric would be, did this hire survive the first two years, and what do the people around him have to say about his performance. > It…

Bullshit. It'll go like this: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Ask me when you're ready to save and I'll teach you the magic incantation. Applicant: types away If you're not able to code in what's essentially just a test box then that's a useful thin…

"I've never driven a semi before."

"NEXT! Obviously you just can't drive, your claim that you were a professional Formula 1 driver is a complete fabrication, and worse, you're clearly bone idle and don't want to learn anything new."

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#133

Post by MaxBarraclough » Sat, May 18, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

unknownkadath wrote: post #108

ubercow13 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen some of the other comments in this thread? Seems like there's a good chance it would be more like: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: ....

Applicant: I prefer emacs Interviewer: REPENT, SINNER!

Eliminate My Application, Continue Searching

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#134

Post by clarry » Sat, May 18, 2019, 12:58 PM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #15

retrac98 wrote: post #5

Some people completely blank when they’re under examination like conditions. It doesn’t make them bad programmers.

Sure, agreed. Except in very special circumstances (devrel, prod system admin, startup first hires) the ability to think clearly under pressure isn't key to success as a developer. That's why I think that a paid take home test is the best way to understand how someone can program. But the job of an interviewer is to get data any way they can, and the job of the interviewee is to provide that data as best they can. Fo…

> Except in very special circumstances (devrel, prod system admin, startup first hires) the ability to think clearly under pressure isn't key to success as a developer.

Even pressure comes in many forms. When your future and career is on the line and you're being judged by a bunch of strangers, it can feel very very adversarial. Instead of having the interviewer's trust, you have the anxiety that comes from the mere thought that they're looking out for all your mistakes and failures. They're doubting you, out to get you. (Even if they weren't, that's how many people often feel)

By contrast, you can have immense pressure in production when shit is on fire and you got a sudden unexpected hard deadline and your team & customer is relying on you. How this feels depends on many factors but it can definitely feel more like being a comrade in battle (and the hero of the day). It can even be energizing. Usually, you have the team's trust and support here. It might be stressful as heck, yet the total opposite of adversarial.

It's kind of a big deal. I would never want to work in an adversarial environment, I don't think it's healthy for anyone. But a bit of stress here and there can help maintain a good pace and make the work more satisfying.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#135

Post by shshhdhs » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:01 PM UTC

twelve40 wrote: post #39

> He reasoned through the problem, wrote the code, it ran perfectly the first time. I hired him. I get the overall sentiment, but come on, "I hired him" sounds like self-absorbed anecdata - so this post is about how to quickly appeal to some manager dude on the interwebs? A more useful metric would be, did this hire survive the first two years, and what do the people around him have to say about his performance. > It…

I agree, but I think the idea is “can they deal with the unexpected or new? How fast do they grok things” Which happens all the time with these new frameworks, tools, etc

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#136

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:02 PM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #124

notimetorelax wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When reading the article I was ready to accept some of practical advice, but lack of empathy makes me not want to listen to the author.

The value of an article does not come from the empathy of the author. For example, my physics manual was very cold describing the formula for acceleration, but I did not ignore it because of that.

Competence is not a Boolean, and hiring is not a physics problem.

If you don't understand why you're hiring people, and what specific skills, psychological mindset and attitude, and abilities you're looking for - not assumed, but rationally chosen, preferably with some peer input - then you'll be bad at it.

OP obviously wants waterfall programmers - give them a predigested problem of limited scope, set them loose, and pick up working code in $time_interval.

That's actually fine for some jobs, but it's going to be a disaster in other contexts.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#137

Post by clarry » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

RealDinosaur wrote: post #60

mettamage wrote: post #37

> I brought in a guy that hadn’t programmed professionally in years, in fact he didn’t even have programming on the first page of his resume. However, he had been practicing while looking for a job and he rocked my programming interview. He reasoned through the problem, wrote the code, it ran perfectly the first time. I hired him. And yet, I have a computer science master with an 8.1 (equivalent to a 4.0 GPA) and com…

I've written tests before, but there ain't no way I'm writing unit tests for a throw away coding exercise that used 4 hours of my time already.

> but there ain't no way I'm writing unit tests for a throw away coding exercise

I would, if whoever gave the exercise told me they want unit tests.

Not telling that, and then failing people for the lack of tests is fucking stupid imo. At that point it's just rejecting them for not having the right (secret) religion.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#138

Post by GoToRO » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

mcherm wrote: post #77

spyspy wrote: post #3

> So, your code isn’t working, what do you do? Stare blankly at the monitor? This always gets me. When the interviewer asks a question, the correct answer is literally never, “let me think about it quietly for a moment”. This is one of the disconnects between interview programming and real programming people get frustrated over.

Actually, in an interview situation, "Let me think about that for a minute." followed by 120 seconds of silence, followed by a solid answer is a GREAT response. That's different from when the candidate is asked a question and they literally just become silent, with a "deer in the headlights" expression.

Usually when you ask for a minute the guy says yes and then just continues rambling...

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#139

Post by shshhdhs » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #101

mrisoli wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good investment for the company, if the interviewer can red flag a candidate who is blatantly lying on his resumé because the candidate would assume no one would know said technology, it would save a lot of money from cutting ties with an employee in a later stage. As an anecdote, I used to work for a company and would require candidates to know some Ruby, for one guy with several years experience in Python we…

Imagine he got the role and did well. Trying to find the perfect person doesn't always work out as expected.

What? The person in the example lied about two entire programming languages and couldn’t even touch them. That kind of person can destroy a team! I wouldn’t hire them either

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#140

Post by scarface74 » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #96

twelve40 wrote: post #39

> He reasoned through the problem, wrote the code, it ran perfectly the first time. I hired him. I get the overall sentiment, but come on, "I hired him" sounds like self-absorbed anecdata - so this post is about how to quickly appeal to some manager dude on the interwebs? A more useful metric would be, did this hire survive the first two years, and what do the people around him have to say about his performance. > It…

Bullshit. It'll go like this: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Ask me when you're ready to save and I'll teach you the magic incantation. Applicant: types away If you're not able to code in what's essentially just a test box then that's a useful thin…

I’ve programmed professionally for over 20 years gotten paid to program in more than a half a dozen languages and before that I learned how to program on an Apple //e by typing:

  CALL -151
  !

To get to the built in mini assembler.

But if you insist on me using Vi, an editor I’ve never used and I get dinged for that, it tells me a lot about your company and I will move on to the other 6 or 7 interviews I have lined up. Your company is not that special.