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Web Programming Is Hard

shubharamani.com

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Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#91

Post by jules »

capstone wrote: post #57
sofuture wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, at one point I thought that as well. I felt, that as someone who programs almost solely in 1) C# 2) Erlang -- "thanks I've got a stdlib for that". And then I actually thought about what it takes to reverse a linked list for a second. And immediately realized I will never, ever hire someone who can't regurgitate or reason how to reverse a linked list "from scratch" within a few minutes.

To play the devil's advocate, and I am speaking specifically within the context of web development, what is a practical example of a linked list?

Would you hire somebody who can't compute 2+4? For the same reason you wouldn't hire somebody who can't reverse a linked list, even if the actual reversing of the linked list doesn't come up in the job.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#92

Post by Vivtek »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #6
patio11 wrote: post #2

I periodically think "Man, I really shouldn't be getting paid for this. Any idiot could stick these two APIs together." In my more sensible moments, I remember that that idiot only needed to know HTML, CSS, the DOM model, Javascript, jQuery, HTTP (mostly headers and status codes), Ruby, Rails, basic MVC design, Oauth, SQL, SQL performance, five-ish APIs to support the two that needed integration, how to configure and…

It's like maintaining a skyscraper built out of Tinker Toys. What I wonder is: Does the following sentence run through the head of every expert in every field? Man, I really shouldn't be getting paid for this. Any idiot could [do X]. It certainly felt true of most of my day-to-day work in graduate semiconductor electronics. It felt true of a lot of biology research. My conclusion is that there are a mere handful of d…

Man, I really shouldn't be getting paid for this. Any idiot could [do X].

I definitely think that periodically about technical translation. Any idiot could read some text and type the exact same text. Then I remember that not everybody can read German, French, Spanish, Italian, and Hungarian, and still stay focused on being able to write readable English.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#93

Post by jordanlev »

arohner wrote: post #71

Yes, Web Programming can be hard, but it's probably harder than it needs to be. The whole ecosystem of HTML + CSS + JS + IE6 is a mess. Something along the lines of Cappuccino will help a lot. Then you're "only" left with the problems of UI/UX, scaling, security, A/B testing, big data and marketing.

Until you want to do something new that Cappuccino developers didn't think of... now your ecosystem has expanded by 1 to HTML + CSS + JS + IE6 + Cappuccino :)

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#94

Post by grayhairmomma »

davidw wrote: post #51
patio11 wrote: post #2

I periodically think "Man, I really shouldn't be getting paid for this. Any idiot could stick these two APIs together." In my more sensible moments, I remember that that idiot only needed to know HTML, CSS, the DOM model, Javascript, jQuery, HTTP (mostly headers and status codes), Ruby, Rails, basic MVC design, Oauth, SQL, SQL performance, five-ish APIs to support the two that needed integration, how to configure and…

I think the comparison was with embedded programming, which can be pretty hard in its own right. Also, with lots of embedded stuff, you don't get the "do over" of being able to update your server with the latest code. Once it has shipped, it had better work. In some cases, people's lives may directly depend on it, something that's probably fairly rare in the world of web programming. I'd hire someone good with C pret…

Embedded is very challenging. But the tools don't change much through the years. With the web, stuff keeps a changin'- like minute by minute.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#95

Post by jamesbritt »

takameyer wrote: post #63
nathanwdavis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add one thing: get to know HTTP. Even a basic understanding will prevent you from making costly mistakes.

Any recommended resources on getting a good foundation for HTTP?

http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#96

Post by Aegean »

Web programming is hard but not necessarily intuitive. That's what I dislike about it. Its a heap of different technologies put together in unstructured fashion. This applies to individual technologies as well, take CSS and see how unintuitive a syntax it has.

Web programming is popular because it drives the web. I don't necessarily find it an intuitive programming experience. This way of thinking is the biggest obstacle ahead of the likes of me (hackers for pleasure) for business success, i.e. primarily focusing on what's interesting from an engineering perspective. This approach is sure to fail in business because people always care about the end result. Technology is just a tool to get there.

I guess part of the problem is when you study computer science or engineering in university, you try to learn the best engineering approaches out there and improve on your engineering skills. Then you face real life where the result matters. I cannot really say CSS or javascript is the best technology out there, but they play a crucial part driving the web.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#97

Post by grayhairmomma »

tjarratt wrote: post #84
kmfrk wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the people I have the most respect for are the people who master cross-browser CSS going back to IE7. Is there another equivalent when it comes to a somewhat popular technology where quirky fixes are actually the main part of the work process?

Integrating various python modules/ruby gems that all monkey patch over each other? ducks On a more serious note, the closest equivalent I can think of is porting games to work on windows, linux and mac platforms. You would have to have a good understanding of the entire renderer, any main event loops and physics, as well as experience in writing very low level code on all those platforms.

Yes, this would be very challenging. Making games cross-platform is not the typical GUI app out there, and is not the sort of app I was thinking about on my blogpost.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#98

Post by Cushman »

sofuture wrote: post #21
grayhairmomma wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said linked lists were hard. I said that it's not necessary to know how to reverse a linked list from memory -- from scratch. I can look it up and get to it right away.

You know, at one point I thought that as well. I felt, that as someone who programs almost solely in 1) C# 2) Erlang -- "thanks I've got a stdlib for that". And then I actually thought about what it takes to reverse a linked list for a second. And immediately realized I will never, ever hire someone who can't regurgitate or reason how to reverse a linked list "from scratch" within a few minutes.

I just went through this exact same process reading your comment. "Well, DSA was a couple years ago... I don't know if I could answer that right off the bat." "Come to think of it, how would I answer that?" "Oh, it's completely obvious."

Not that I expect to be in a position to make hiring decisions, but if someone can't answer that intuitively with a few moments' thought I know they're probably a couple of years' experience from being able to keep up with me.

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#99

Post by [deleted] »

jules wrote: post #91
capstone wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play the devil's advocate, and I am speaking specifically within the context of web development, what is a practical example of a linked list?

Would you hire somebody who can't compute 2+4? For the same reason you wouldn't hire somebody who can't reverse a linked list, even if the actual reversing of the linked list doesn't come up in the job.

[deleted]

Re: Web Programming Is Hard

#100

Post by anthuswilliams »

coliveira wrote: post #60
mcantor wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet 90% of the time, any "expert" is working on things that any idiot can do. But that isn't why people pay experts! I think experts are paid so much because of the other 10% of the time. When convoluted edge conditions have made a mockery of all things abstract and sensible, they are capable of diving into the black boxes and figuring out what's really going on to save the day.

If an expert is 90% of the time doing something boring, maybe he/she should be hiring somebody else to handle it, don't you think? Taking the idea to software, maybe it wouldn't hurt to hire cheap programmers as long as they're following the directions of an expert.

As a cheap programmer, I disagree. An expert may spend 90% of his time doing something he feels is drudgery, but he does it properly, so as to prevent the 10% all-hands-on-deck emergencies from occurring.

If you hire cheap programmers to handle the 90% under the expert's supervision, the expert still has to painstakingly review the work so as to ensure it was done in a way that at least sort of resembles the method the expert himself would have used. And having reviewed other people's code, I am of the opinion that process is sometimes soul-crushing.

As a cheap programmer, I appreciate the consideration, as I like to feel I have some utility. But as an entrepreneur, I think it's a bad idea.

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