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SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

nytimes.com

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Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#311

Post by manfredo »

p1necone wrote: post #288
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m getting pushed further and further to the right. Maybe not, it feels like to me that the Overton window[0] has been sliding left. My views on freedom of speech made me a 'leftist commie' when I used them to defend South Park and Eminem now most often I'm accused being 'alt-right' by those who disagree with those same views. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Anecdotal, but I notice a lot more people clamoring about freedom of speech when it's white supremacists being affected and a lot less when it's ISIS or Al-Qaeda. I find it very hard to take them seriously because of this, despite agreeing with a lot of the sentiment.

Keep in mind that the definition of "white supremacy" has been expanded to include things like opposition to affirmative action, or support for enforcement of existing border control regulations (let along their expansion). Of course calls to censor those things are going to garner much more opposition than censoring explicit terrorist organizations.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#312

Post by resters »

The problem isn't the adversity score, it's the admissions practices that reward mediocre performance in rich public school districts.

Colleges already weigh a GPA as better if the school district is more wealthy (competitive). So the adversity score counter-balances that existing bias.

If you go to a big state school you meet a lot of mediocre people who went to rich public schools and got mediocre scores and high (memorization-oriented) GPAs. They had access to lots of AP credits and get admissions advantages not just for the results but for taking the AP classes in the first place (weighted GPAs, etc.).

The adversity score, if it works correctly, will help colleges find students who attended high schools that were little more than daycare, offered no weighted GPA, few AP classes, lousy teachers, etc. A high potential student from one of those districts will fly under the radar compared to the kid who had a memorization 3.8 GPA and 8 AP classes from a big suburban high school.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#314

Post by metildaa »

wallace_f wrote: post #189
perfmode wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you make an argument why this would be considered about “outcome” for the purpose of conversation?

I grew up in a poor, dangerous neighborhood as a child. Later in my teens I lived in a wealthy suburb with collectible cars in the driveway after my father's startup succeeded. My father was physically abusive, and child services got involved. My father's lawyers sorted things out to get the investigation to stop and drop charges if I lived somewhere else. I unfortunately went into the Troubled Teen industry (which I…

People shouldn't be viewed as financially coupled to their parents until 25. Our current system is set up to discourage people from furthering their educations, with exorbitant tuition and fees.

If you had been in the Netherlands, you'd get a stipend of ~$10k per year when enrolling in school, and other countries have similar systems. UBC in Vancouver, Canada generally pays masters students $30k a year, having had a few friends depart to Canada due to said offer.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#315

Post by smilekzs »

As a reference: The Chinese equivalent, Gaokao [0], is notorious for its brutal difficulty, but also widely regarded [citation needed] as a great equalizer. To that end, high school students spend obscene amount of their class time doing test prep (yes, in school instead of after). Although YMMV, and the total score usually spreads out quite nicely without need for curving (one such attempt was recently made [1]; it didn't turn out well). That is, despite all the extensive test prep, Gaokao simply refuses to be maxxed out (effectively, due to human scoring of essays). With all its problems and totally valid criticism, Gaokao remains (IMHO) the golden standard in equality of opportunity. Sadly China is moving to "diversify" college admission recently --- euphemism for bias towards wealthier families.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_College_Entrance_...

[1]: (Chinese Wikipedia) https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E5%B9%B411%E6%9C%88%E6%B5...

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#316

Post by fzeroracer »

GhostVII wrote: post #265
jachee wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishing those in privilege is how you achieve equality. They can't give up that inequality voluntarily, and wouldn't if they could.

You can also give resources to those who aren't in privilege so they are able to succeed academically, and don't need to have their admission average artificially lowered.

Giving resources is also a zero-sum game. When you're giving more resources to those that aren't privileged, you are in effect denying those same resources for those that are.

For example, school admissions. We can provide more funding for underperforming schools, but that is also less funding going towards better performing schools. At a certain point you will have to accept that to help the poor it will mean cutting off certain benefits for more well-off. Then the discussion becomes around how much resources should be shifted around.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#317

Post by scythe »

thex10 wrote: post #237
rhegart wrote: post #131

Equality of opportunity over outcome for me. Now Asians will be discriminated against secretly. My family sacrificing vacations and eating out for 12 years (literally ate out 5x max) to afford to live in a good school district shouldn’t penalize us. My dad commuted 4 hours daily instead of moving...I’m getting pushed further and further to the right.

> I’m getting pushed further and further to the right. Oh, do you think the right is going to improve upon the US's current system of incentivizing/forcing families to fight over/make big sacrifices for homes in the wealthiest school districts in order to give their children a half-decent shot at a good education? Or do you just want to be entitled to the good college in exchange for the childhood your parents chose…

>Or do you just want to be entitled to the good college in exchange for the childhood your parents chose to give/were coerced into giving you?

It should generally be noted that such policies usually do not hurt the truly well-connected as much as the nouveau riche, who fought their way from poverty to a home in the suburbs only to find their investment pulled out from under them. For instance, black families were disproportionately affected by the subprime mortgage crisis. One way or another, society told these people "do this", they complied, and they face being punished for it. Not to perceive an injustice here is wilful blindness.

The policy is quite defensible, but grandparent's concerns are legitimate and do not warrant sarcasm.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#318

Post by fenwick67 »

sjy wrote: post #221
remote_phone wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

Choosing to get a fake divorce so that you can game the system as much as possible isn't punishment; it's probably fraud. You could also choose to relax and let your children enjoy all the other benefits of a great upbringing, and accept that "the children of hardworking parents should be more likely to be admitted" isn't a design goal of the admissions system.

If you don't lie it's not fraud. You can game metrics all you want, you can get divorced for any reason.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#319

Post by NullPrefix »

YjSe2GMQ wrote: post #285
harryh wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still get the score for how well you did. You don't get your "adversity score" which is not based on how well you did, but only on where you live and what high school you attend.

Which is absurd, considering it's involved in college admission process. Maybe we should also have a hidden citizen score, to be used behind the scenes in the courts of law?

Should adversity points be included in that citizen score?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#320

Post by Mirioron »

YjSe2GMQ wrote: post #285
harryh wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still get the score for how well you did. You don't get your "adversity score" which is not based on how well you did, but only on where you live and what high school you attend.

Which is absurd, considering it's involved in college admission process. Maybe we should also have a hidden citizen score, to be used behind the scenes in the courts of law?

We should call it the social credit score.
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