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Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

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Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#181

Post by tomnipotent »

underwater wrote: post #168
jdormit wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason they haven't faced the same shitstorm is because they don't seem to share all that data with 3rd parties. This is the whole point though, is it not? As far as we know, Google treats the data they collect more thoughtfully and responsibly than Facebook. And so they are (rightly or not) viewed as less of a threat to the public good. Of course, they could just be better at hiding their abuse of our dat…

Is that really any better? Google is so monolithic and all encompassing that data collected by their services can be shipped around internally instead of having to be sold to third parties.

> be shipped around internally

How is that a problem? The issue at hand is the irresponsible handling of data (especially wrt 3rd parties), not the general handling of 1st-party data competently within an internal network.

So yes, it's a LOT better.

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#182

Post by bendoernberg »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #170

As a current student, I'm actually surprised by this. Maybe I just hang out with evil people, but I don't get the impression most young programmers care that much about ethics. Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. Perhaps there's other reasons? I do joke with my friend who works at Bloomberg that the "evil" finance view has now flipped completely. Bloom…

Why do you hang out with people who don't care about ethics?

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#183

Post by BowBun »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #170

As a current student, I'm actually surprised by this. Maybe I just hang out with evil people, but I don't get the impression most young programmers care that much about ethics. Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. Perhaps there's other reasons? I do joke with my friend who works at Bloomberg that the "evil" finance view has now flipped completely. Bloom…

What you think you want while in classes and the shifting realities once you enter the workforce and be pretty night-and-day.

Personally I would have entertained the idea at working at a "Big 4"-type company out of school knowing that they were ethically opposed to me. I guess mostly because the name on a resume is worth multiple other jobs in some scenarios and gives you an advantage over your peers.

Just a few years later, a 6-figure salary doesn't seem that outrageous and unique to those big corporations. Now that the difference is only in the $10s of thousands, these decisions become a little more nuanced and uncertain. Besides that, once you hit the high 5-figures, money becomes less and less of a driver in your life unless you are in desperate need due to your circumstances.

My point is that I think fresh graduates will put aside their ethical qualms because they don't yet know their worth and place in the workforce. That can change pretty quick.

That being said, plenty of people just don't care, and that's why these companies still have thousands of developers. It's easy to be blissfully ignorant of your contributions to privacy degeneration and corporate takeovers of our lives when "all you do" is write some React components or speed up some data pipelines. The executives and managers are the ones who will really need to reckon with their consciences, knowing they implemented all these nasty programs.

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#184

Post by subparwheat »

camjohnson26 wrote: post #33
5trokerac3 wrote: post #27

Facebook's brand is tainted enough now that smart engineers don't want any of the bleedover into their personal brand that would come from working there. How many engineers, in hiring positions, do you know that have a positive opinion of FB?

Ok but how many engineers use React, yarn, or graphql? Facebook is still leading the way in front end development and it’s still a net positive to have that name on your resume. Their brand isn’t any more tainted than Google, Microsoft, or Amazon.

Facebook is not lacking on the problem in their web tech either. Like how terrible it's maintaining (or the lack of) flow. It's buggy as hell and I wish I didn't choose it couple years ago in my projects

And for React, the head of React left FB because of the hostile working environment earlier this year. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/17/facebook-manager-quits-after...

Facebook led the way in frontend. But for future candidate, the important question is, if they have faith that FB will continue to lead that way.

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#185

Post by la_barba »

romwell wrote: post #171
la_barba wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has Google ever disclosed exactly what data they collect, what they do with it, who can look at it, etc? We "know" that Google takes privacy "seriously", but that is a faith based position.

Actually, Google has. [0] And I can't vouch for all of Google, but regarding location data, Google has been pretty transparent regarding which data is collected and stored; papers like NYT covered it extensively - see [1]. And Google also gives you clear ways to delete this data, as referenced in that NYT article [2]. And moreover, Google has been consistently on track to store less private data . Example: location d…

Pre-Disclaimer: I don't mean to only pick on Google here, it applies to any company that collects such a vast amount of personal data on users. Also.. nothing personal :)

>Actually, Google has.

In extremely vague terms, yes. I want to see an itemized list.

For e.g. At company X, this is what we collect:

1) Your Name, age, location, DOB. 2) Your location is sent to COmpany X every 10 minutes 3) Your IP is tracked per-session 4) All this data is linked to your profile 5) Any thing you type in the search bar is sent to a company X server 6) After anonymizing (if we do it) this is what your data looks like 7) We never delete any of the above for the following reasons etc,etc,etc

>And moreover, Google has been consistently on track to store less private data.

The default should be zero/as little as possible collection of data. From what you've said it seems like people can opt-out of some data collection, but its vague as to the specific nature of what data is still being collected versus what isn't.

>Hope the links I referenced will help dispel this notion. Google does take privacy seriously.

Unfortunately they don't. I won't dispute your second claim.

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#186

Post by varelse »

pferde wrote: post #100
varelse wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMZN<FB<GOOG<Wall Street in my experience for AI skills. #OneDatapoint

You seem to be lost. Twitter is down the hall, second door on the left.

W/r to comp, that's my data point, don't like? Then don't like...

FB has a salary cap below GOOG, AMZN is just cheap and prefers people leaving to countering. Then AMZN makes a big deal of hiring such people back for what they should have countered, proudly calling them "boomerangs."

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#187

Post by Barrin92 »

la_barba wrote: post #159
Barrin92 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They definitely collect much more data than Facebook. The only reason they haven't faced the same shitstorm is because they don't seem to share all that data with 3rd parties. And that is something that is much more relevant to many users. I don't mind sharing a lot of my data as long as I know where my data actually ends up. If Google uses my data to improve their ad algorithm I'm fine with it, if my Facebook data…

> I know where my data actually ends up And how do you know what Google does with it? AFAIK Google has never officially stated in specific detail what data they collect, what they do with it, who can access it, etc. Their Privacy Policy gives them a giant escape hatch to essentially do anything with it - "We provide personal information to our affiliates and other trusted businesses or persons to process it for us, b…

I think you not quoting the rest of that sentence is quite disingenuous

>"...For example, we use service providers to help us with customer support"

As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that Google shares my personal information, without my explicit consent, with third parties like Cambridge Analytica, which collected tens of millions of individual user profiles.

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#188

Post by subparwheat »

warp_factor wrote: post #41

The general feel I get from most of my engineer friends is that Facebook's product is definitely not inspiring and doesn't "make the world a better place" (whatever that means). But the consensus is that given the right amount of money, they would all accept an offer from them. And Facebook is known to pay very well.

It's pretty true that the pay trumps them all. But Google is generally pretty good at matching Facebook's offer. So when choosing between FB and Google, or any of FAANG, the pay is usually less of a concern. So being considered "not inspiring" and "evil" is definitively not helping FB to close on the candidates.

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#189

Post by camjohnson26 »

subparwheat wrote: post #184
camjohnson26 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but how many engineers use React, yarn, or graphql? Facebook is still leading the way in front end development and it’s still a net positive to have that name on your resume. Their brand isn’t any more tainted than Google, Microsoft, or Amazon.

Facebook is not lacking on the problem in their web tech either. Like how terrible it's maintaining (or the lack of) flow. It's buggy as hell and I wish I didn't choose it couple years ago in my projects And for React, the head of React left FB because of the hostile working environment earlier this year. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/17/facebook-manager-quits-after... Facebook led the way in frontend. But for future…

Sure but no company is going to be perfect and I’d say their track record of maintaining tech is better than Google’s right now.

Re: Facebook has struggled to hire talent since the Cambridge Analytica scandal

#190

Post by gspetr »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #170

As a current student, I'm actually surprised by this. Maybe I just hang out with evil people, but I don't get the impression most young programmers care that much about ethics. Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. Perhaps there's other reasons? I do joke with my friend who works at Bloomberg that the "evil" finance view has now flipped completely. Bloom…

Age is a proxy for putting value into such concepts as "ethics". When you're more or less senior and have your basic needs met, then you can afford to be picky on what you work. Fresh grads might not care because it takes to know evil to know good (see the story of the original sin and Tree of the knowledge of good and evil), and work experience is like a separate life experience.

Heck, I've heard a theory that you should only be counting programming years as life years, i.e. if they haven't been programming for 18 years, then they aren't adults in the world of software. And the funny thing is, once you're at least a teenager by this definition, then you start thinking that they might actually be onto something...

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