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Free Solo and Economic Growth

johnhcochrane.blogspot.com

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Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#51

Post by cardiffspaceman »

FrojoS wrote: post #28
moredhel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that more modern climbing gear is fantastic and definitely gives me a great deal of confidence when I am pushing my limits, I don't think that it would stop me from pushing at all. Even using gear from 30-40 years ago, it is possible to climb with relative safety, the new gear is mainly only an incremental improvement in safety. That's not to say that I would happily take a fall on older equipment, just that…

> Even using gear from 30-40 years ago, it is possible to climb with relative safety, the new gear is mainly only an incremental improvement in safety. Yes, but isn't that also roughly when modern sport climbing started? Nylon ropes for climbing were introduced about 55y ago, though, I don't know when they became wide spread. Same for modern harness, modern bolts and quick draws. So your ~40y ago might be roughly cor…

When Yosemite Mountaineering School classes went out to the rock they used nylon ropes, in 1975. I was never more than a student of climbing but everything that has been mentioned in this thread was being done, and written up in books you could buy at Kelty, in the mid 70's. Dawn Wall was climbed with 300 bolts on its first ascent (but bolt usage was ahead of its time). The 'harness' is the main refinement I would say was lacking. YMS classes were taught to put on, and the books described, the swami belt (not unknown today, but not preferred?) made on demand from webbing. Cams were advertised but chocks/nuts were the standard.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#52

Post by ip26 »

moredhel wrote: post #5
tomxor wrote: post #3

Not to detract too much from the author's point... But as a climber myself, I think climbing technology does actually contribute to advances in pure climbing skill more than you might think. Take just a single aspect of the gear - climbing rope, modern rope is a technological wonder, light, super strong and extremely dynamic, it's part of what makes it possible to push yourself to the limit and repeatedly fall off ro…

I agree that more modern climbing gear is fantastic and definitely gives me a great deal of confidence when I am pushing my limits, I don't think that it would stop me from pushing at all. Even using gear from 30-40 years ago, it is possible to climb with relative safety, the new gear is mainly only an incremental improvement in safety. That's not to say that I would happily take a fall on older equipment, just that…

I feel like you've selected a very convenient mile marker. Right after nylon ropes & cams entered widespread usage.

Using gear from, say, 45 years ago you would have mainly hexes, tricams, and nuts. Would you climb as hard then?

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#53

Post by starpilot »

jonahrd wrote: post #42
moredhel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that more modern climbing gear is fantastic and definitely gives me a great deal of confidence when I am pushing my limits, I don't think that it would stop me from pushing at all. Even using gear from 30-40 years ago, it is possible to climb with relative safety, the new gear is mainly only an incremental improvement in safety. That's not to say that I would happily take a fall on older equipment, just that…

But getting to the point where you can ascend El Cap in 4 hours requires modern gear. In Free Solo, most of the documentary focuses on his progress over years practicing the route. Getting to a specific point on the face of El Cap used to be a weeks-long endeavor in itself, pushing everyone to their physical and technological limits. The fact that he was able to go for day-trips to any point on the wall to practice i…

Tommy Caldwell recreated the dyno on the Dawn Wall with plastic holds. Alex Honnold didn't practice the boulder problem on Freerider on the ground to my knowledge, he set it at a gym later for fun though.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#54

Post by ip26 »

cardiffspaceman wrote: post #51
FrojoS wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even using gear from 30-40 years ago, it is possible to climb with relative safety, the new gear is mainly only an incremental improvement in safety. Yes, but isn't that also roughly when modern sport climbing started? Nylon ropes for climbing were introduced about 55y ago, though, I don't know when they became wide spread. Same for modern harness, modern bolts and quick draws. So your ~40y ago might be roughly cor…

When Yosemite Mountaineering School classes went out to the rock they used nylon ropes, in 1975. I was never more than a student of climbing but everything that has been mentioned in this thread was being done, and written up in books you could buy at Kelty, in the mid 70's. Dawn Wall was climbed with 300 bolts on its first ascent (but bolt usage was ahead of its time). The 'harness' is the main refinement I would sa…

I doubt cams were advertised in '75. Friends were created in '78.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#55

Post by abakker »

tomxor wrote: post #17
njepa wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should detract from the author's point, because it only works if you are largely ignorant of how things like this actually happens. It is essentially always not generics, but specifics. Specific people doing specific things in specific places with specific technology and culture. Without knowing much of the "extreme climbing community" I would bet that it is a rather specific group of people and largely non-exist…

> The author is largely trying to sell exceptionalism. That everything will be fine with generic improvements. [...] Specific people doing specific things in specific places with specific technology and culture. On second thought I think you are correct, it should detract. And it's important my example only be seen within the context of the entire climbing culture, not as an alternative to the authors causal choice.…

There are obviously both factors at work though. Exceptionalism does happen, and it is not purely driven by technology. Outside of climbing, take guitar as an example. The amount of excellent players out there on youtube is amazing. Certainly music and the instruments have been available and mass marketed since the 70s at least, but guitars haven't gotten easier to play. Now though, there are a lot of players that have grown up now watching how others play. Not just figuring it out by ear but seeing videos of great players and studying them. It's never been easier to observe great musicians, and so you see plenty of instrumentalists that have progressed very far, building on the shoulders of those who figured those techniques out and wrote those songs.

I don't think the author intended the piece to be "an explanation" so much as an observation. I think that is fine, and there isn't much point in generalizing this observation a human tendency towards sloppy thinking.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#56

Post by oftenwrong »

skohan wrote: post #7

> Alex is wearing modern climbing boots As a climber this hurt me a bit to read. They're not boots, they're shoes John! Also I'm glad that the movie is successful, and that the sport of climbing is getting mainstream attention, but personally I'm more impressed by the accomplishment of Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson in free-climbing the dawn wall with protection. In my mind that is a better representation of the h…

Many people would call them "rock boots" in British English.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#57

Post by scarecrowbob »

starpilot wrote: post #53
jonahrd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But getting to the point where you can ascend El Cap in 4 hours requires modern gear. In Free Solo, most of the documentary focuses on his progress over years practicing the route. Getting to a specific point on the face of El Cap used to be a weeks-long endeavor in itself, pushing everyone to their physical and technological limits. The fact that he was able to go for day-trips to any point on the wall to practice i…

Tommy Caldwell recreated the dyno on the Dawn Wall with plastic holds. Alex Honnold didn't practice the boulder problem on Freerider on the ground to my knowledge, he set it at a gym later for fun though.

Are the plastic holds themselves an example of the technology we're thinking about here?

The gym is, itself, a technology that has pushed the envelope on climbing. When I was learning in the 90s there was no gym where I was and if I wanted to practice I had to climb buildings. It's much easier now to find good places to work out climbing technique without traveling to the cliff.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#58

Post by [deleted] »

ip26 wrote: post #52
moredhel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that more modern climbing gear is fantastic and definitely gives me a great deal of confidence when I am pushing my limits, I don't think that it would stop me from pushing at all. Even using gear from 30-40 years ago, it is possible to climb with relative safety, the new gear is mainly only an incremental improvement in safety. That's not to say that I would happily take a fall on older equipment, just that…

I feel like you've selected a very convenient mile marker. Right after nylon ropes & cams entered widespread usage. Using gear from, say, 45 years ago you would have mainly hexes, tricams, and nuts. Would you climb as hard then?

[deleted]

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#59

Post by Reedx »

skohan wrote: post #7

> Alex is wearing modern climbing boots As a climber this hurt me a bit to read. They're not boots, they're shoes John! Also I'm glad that the movie is successful, and that the sport of climbing is getting mainstream attention, but personally I'm more impressed by the accomplishment of Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson in free-climbing the dawn wall with protection. In my mind that is a better representation of the h…

Plus Caldwell climbed with a missing finger!

That said, I'm not sure I'd rank one over the other. Both feats are incredibly impressive, albeit for different reasons.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#60

Post by njepa »

abakker wrote: post #55
tomxor wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author is largely trying to sell exceptionalism. That everything will be fine with generic improvements. [...] Specific people doing specific things in specific places with specific technology and culture. On second thought I think you are correct, it should detract. And it's important my example only be seen within the context of the entire climbing culture, not as an alternative to the authors causal choice.…

There are obviously both factors at work though. Exceptionalism does happen, and it is not purely driven by technology. Outside of climbing, take guitar as an example. The amount of excellent players out there on youtube is amazing. Certainly music and the instruments have been available and mass marketed since the 70s at least, but guitars haven't gotten easier to play. Now though, there are a lot of players that ha…

I just don't think the authors observation is very good. He is essentially saying that "a rising tide lifts all boats". But in reality it is the boats that are important more so than the tide.

The invention of the sampler created a huge amount of value. But mainly by a handful of companies and music scenes. If you wasn't for Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, London, Bristol or wherever else the change would have been marginal. Just like climbing wouldn't necessarily improve without places like Yosemite.

You can even go further and say that it isn't just specific groups that make progress, but that they define progress itself. There isn't much as such saying that free soloing in Yosemite is what progress is. Or even that climbing is worth progressing.

There also can't be many who believe that technology haven't made e.g. trains significantly better in past decades. Yet, China now have much more advanced trains than the US which is arguably better at technology. That is presumably because China is building boats rather than praising the tide.

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