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Free Solo and Economic Growth

johnhcochrane.blogspot.com

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Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#11

Post by zopa »

There's much more technology involved than Cochrane acknowledges. Alex didn't on-sight that climb: he practiced, over and over again, using ropes and gear that have existed in their current form for 60 years at best. The same goes for how he got so good: he climbed with ropes and gear (well, sometimes), and learned from people who used gear nearly all the time.

Much of that technology looks old, but isn't: ropes have been around a while, but modern climbing ropes stretch so as to drastically lower the peak forces on your protection. For example. Modern climbing exists in large part because we developed technology that lets you try to climb hard high stuff without dying.

Now, you could also get good just by bouldering, staying close to the ground. But that's not how actual existing climbing developed: bouldering grew out of crag climbing, which grew out of mountaineering. It's a little silly to wonder why people weren't very good at a game we just invented, before we invented it.

Another point. We don't actually know how good the best climbers were throughout history. There's a clear upward trajectory to 19th-century British mountaineering and its descendants. But how good were the best Incan climbers in 1350?

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#12

Post by gameswithgo »

Fun bit of trivia on this topic: Alex was the first person to climb El Cap with no protection. The first person to climb The Nose route without using the gear for aid, was a woman, Lynn Hill. So El Cap went from a weeks long project using anything they had for aid, to climbed with rope used only for protection by a woman, in a day, and now to Alex climbing El Cap (via an easier route than Hill) with no protection at all.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#13

Post by zopa »

gameswithgo wrote: post #9
tomxor wrote: post #3

Not to detract too much from the author's point... But as a climber myself, I think climbing technology does actually contribute to advances in pure climbing skill more than you might think. Take just a single aspect of the gear - climbing rope, modern rope is a technological wonder, light, super strong and extremely dynamic, it's part of what makes it possible to push yourself to the limit and repeatedly fall off ro…

Alex didn't use any rope going up El Cap so...

He did though, just not on his final ascent.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#14

Post by tomxor »

gameswithgo wrote: post #9
tomxor wrote: post #3

Not to detract too much from the author's point... But as a climber myself, I think climbing technology does actually contribute to advances in pure climbing skill more than you might think. Take just a single aspect of the gear - climbing rope, modern rope is a technological wonder, light, super strong and extremely dynamic, it's part of what makes it possible to push yourself to the limit and repeatedly fall off ro…

Alex didn't use any rope going up El Cap so...

I don't think you read all of my post... i'm not talking about the direct affect of technology use on any single assent.

Only if Alex has never used a modern climbing rope in his life is my point invalid (I know he has). It's also important to understand that many of other pieces of climbing technology help in learning and developing the skill for everyone, not a single one, ropes are just an example.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#15

Post by takk309 »

gameswithgo wrote: post #9
tomxor wrote: post #3

Not to detract too much from the author's point... But as a climber myself, I think climbing technology does actually contribute to advances in pure climbing skill more than you might think. Take just a single aspect of the gear - climbing rope, modern rope is a technological wonder, light, super strong and extremely dynamic, it's part of what makes it possible to push yourself to the limit and repeatedly fall off ro…

Alex didn't use any rope going up El Cap so...

True, but he did use a rope to rehearse the route a large number of times. He knew he was physically capable of free soloing the route because of the confidence he was able to gain as a direct result of using the technology available to him.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#16

Post by trollied »

If you have seen and enjoyed Free Solo, I can also recommend the Reel Rock series & Meru.

If you haven't seen Free Solo (because you're not interested in climbing, or whatever) it's still worth a watch.

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/tv/show/AP-1MD65N6X92111/reel...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2545428/

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#17

Post by tomxor »

njepa wrote: post #8
tomxor wrote: post #3

Not to detract too much from the author's point... But as a climber myself, I think climbing technology does actually contribute to advances in pure climbing skill more than you might think. Take just a single aspect of the gear - climbing rope, modern rope is a technological wonder, light, super strong and extremely dynamic, it's part of what makes it possible to push yourself to the limit and repeatedly fall off ro…

You should detract from the author's point, because it only works if you are largely ignorant of how things like this actually happens. It is essentially always not generics, but specifics. Specific people doing specific things in specific places with specific technology and culture. Without knowing much of the "extreme climbing community" I would bet that it is a rather specific group of people and largely non-exist…

> The author is largely trying to sell exceptionalism. That everything will be fine with generic improvements. [...] Specific people doing specific things in specific places with specific technology and culture.

On second thought I think you are correct, it should detract. And it's important my example only be seen within the context of the entire climbing culture, not as an alternative to the authors causal choice. Many things, individual pieces of technology, social environment and cultural inertia have brought the culture to where it is today - it cannot be attributed to any single thing or event.

I think there is something about human psychology that makes people commonly gravitate towards this type of thinking, like in a myth or fairytale... some sensitive dependence, a key event that changed it all! or a single piece of technology to change it all etc etc. It makes for exciting stories and makes it easy to explain things (wrongly), but it's rarely the truth.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#18

Post by QuotedForTruth »

moredhel wrote: post #5
tomxor wrote: post #3

Not to detract too much from the author's point... But as a climber myself, I think climbing technology does actually contribute to advances in pure climbing skill more than you might think. Take just a single aspect of the gear - climbing rope, modern rope is a technological wonder, light, super strong and extremely dynamic, it's part of what makes it possible to push yourself to the limit and repeatedly fall off ro…

I agree that more modern climbing gear is fantastic and definitely gives me a great deal of confidence when I am pushing my limits, I don't think that it would stop me from pushing at all. Even using gear from 30-40 years ago, it is possible to climb with relative safety, the new gear is mainly only an incremental improvement in safety. That's not to say that I would happily take a fall on older equipment, just that…

Really? You'd be comfortable whipping in a swiss seat tied to a hemp rope (not dynamic) and stopped by a body belay? I don't think so. A clean fall onto a static rope can kill you from the sudden stop alone. There is a reason the mantra used to be "the leader must not fall" and its not because those guys were just scared.

Sure 30 to 40 years ago (1980-1990) the equipment was good, and thats about when the explosion in free climbing ability really got going. The first 5.13 (Alex's Free Solo route Freerider has a 13a pitch) was done in 77 and the first 5.14 in 85. [1] Not coincidentally, the modern cam came into use in the late 70s. [2] Good climbing shoes came in the 80s too. Sport climbing, the use of bolts (technology) to safely climb faces that weren't previously protectable also started in the early 80s. So of course you wouldn't mind climbing on 30-40 year old climbing technology.

Normal gear has been pretty stable since then and the limits of the sport have continued to grow, but that doesnt mean its not because of technology. The boom we are in now has been due to another bit of technology, the indoor climbing gym. They started in earnest in the 90s and have allowed a new level of training.

[1] https://web.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/hard.htm

[2] https://www.climbing.com/news/10-things-you-didnt-know-about...

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#19

Post by skohan »

tomxor wrote: post #10
skohan wrote: post #7

> Alex is wearing modern climbing boots As a climber this hurt me a bit to read. They're not boots, they're shoes John! Also I'm glad that the movie is successful, and that the sport of climbing is getting mainstream attention, but personally I'm more impressed by the accomplishment of Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson in free-climbing the dawn wall with protection. In my mind that is a better representation of the h…

> Climbing without protection has more to do with being a daredevil than a climber. I think it's important to recognise that there are many different ways to get up a piece of rock, these are a choice in "style", and each style has different challenges, different qualities etc. No one style is better than another, they are a personal choice, and this is part of what makes the sport so great... if you want to invent a…

I understand what you're saying, and I'm all for people finding what they enjoy and defining the sport on their own terms.

What gets me about free solo climbing is the sheer level of risk involved. Even for the best in the world, there are too many variables which simply can't be controlled in a climb like that, which is evidenced by the high rate of death for free-solo climbers.

I fully support anyone's right to decide to take on that risk if they are fully informed of it. Personally it would not sit well with my morals to risk my life in such a way over a completely optional, self-serving activity given the emotional and material cost my death would bring to the people who care about me.

Moreover, I have qualms about such pure risk being an avenue for fame and fortune.

Re: Free Solo and Economic Growth

#20

Post by Fricken »

skohan wrote: post #7

> Alex is wearing modern climbing boots As a climber this hurt me a bit to read. They're not boots, they're shoes John! Also I'm glad that the movie is successful, and that the sport of climbing is getting mainstream attention, but personally I'm more impressed by the accomplishment of Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson in free-climbing the dawn wall with protection. In my mind that is a better representation of the h…

Mislabelling climbing gear doesn't bug me, but this:

> Likewise, nobody in 1958 had any idea that you could hang by your thumbs and fingers to exploit little pieces of rock. This knowledge, demonstrated in the movie, emerged from the community of rock climbers and boulderers over time.

John Gill was sending V9 Boulder problems in 1958, in tennis shoes! He was off in his own little world and climbing way beyond the standards of the greater climbing community at the time.

Gill is regarded as the father of modern bouldering. He began as a gymnast and adapted modern training techniques from gymnastics to bouldering. He never had much interest in roped climbing or long routes, he was all about doing the hardest possible moves on stone.

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