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Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

reuters.com

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Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#11

Post by mistrial9 »

drchewbacca wrote: post #2

Personally I can't do more than 2-3 hours of genuine "deep work" per day. That is high quality, focused, immersed thinking on a difficult problem and writing code. IMO people who work a large number of hours each week get cognitively slowed. They can't tell they've slowed down (partly because they don't have a control to compare against) and so think that if you do 80 hours per week you'll do twice as much as if you…

Executives who think the best way to measure business control is by how much your employees are sat at their desks are succeeding.

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#12

Post by bpicolo »

close04 wrote: post #7
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Henry Ford was an early, outspoken (and reviled) advocate of the 40-hour work week. Not because he was concerned about his employees' welfare--he absolutely wasn't--but because he tried running factories at everything from 20 to 80 hours a week and found that 40 was the sweet spot. Anything beyond that and you're actually losing total productivity per week. And that's for assembly-line work. It's mostly rote. It stan…

I think initially you get 50% more productivity with 50% extra hours in the work week. After a week or two though you’re lucky to break even and get the 40h worth of productivity. After another week or two it’s all but guaranteed that overall productivity is actually lower, you’re just destroying your health and possibly screwing up the work.

I'm not sure that's true. I doubt most people can't maintain productive focus for 12 hours of a work day.

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#13

Post by Tade0 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #3
drchewbacca wrote: post #2

Personally I can't do more than 2-3 hours of genuine "deep work" per day. That is high quality, focused, immersed thinking on a difficult problem and writing code. IMO people who work a large number of hours each week get cognitively slowed. They can't tell they've slowed down (partly because they don't have a control to compare against) and so think that if you do 80 hours per week you'll do twice as much as if you…

Henry Ford was an early, outspoken (and reviled) advocate of the 40-hour work week. Not because he was concerned about his employees' welfare--he absolutely wasn't--but because he tried running factories at everything from 20 to 80 hours a week and found that 40 was the sweet spot. Anything beyond that and you're actually losing total productivity per week. And that's for assembly-line work. It's mostly rote. It stan…

I work for a company that expects 6h of focused work daily.

Coming from a large corporation with highly diluted responsibility - among other disincentives to actually work - it took some time to adapt to this model, but I think it's a fair arrangement.

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#14

Post by TheOperator »

drchewbacca wrote: post #2

Personally I can't do more than 2-3 hours of genuine "deep work" per day. That is high quality, focused, immersed thinking on a difficult problem and writing code. IMO people who work a large number of hours each week get cognitively slowed. They can't tell they've slowed down (partly because they don't have a control to compare against) and so think that if you do 80 hours per week you'll do twice as much as if you…

I wouldn't cargo cult everything leaders like Jack Ma propose just because they're highly successful.

Sure some 996er's at a company at say, the senior management level can be worth it since you do actually get more work done. Abliet incredibly inefficiently while getting paid the entire time.

I don't see how its efficient to have the core of your business being nothing but employees who are working at decreased efficiency yet are getting paid the same wages. Theres some benefit in cutting down on communication/management overhead but more employees seems like a better idea overall...

It's also simply a practical reality not everybody in society CAN work like this.

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#15

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

bpicolo wrote: post #12
close04 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think initially you get 50% more productivity with 50% extra hours in the work week. After a week or two though you’re lucky to break even and get the 40h worth of productivity. After another week or two it’s all but guaranteed that overall productivity is actually lower, you’re just destroying your health and possibly screwing up the work.

I'm not sure that's true. I doubt most people can't maintain productive focus for 12 hours of a work day.

Really gotta define what sort of work. As a knowledge worker, I'm really only in the zone for maybe half my day now - I doubt that increasing the work day would get more highly productive time out of me.

Maybe manual labour jobs may be better for that, but even there I doubt it, and they'll have physical exhaustion before I hit mental exhaustion, if only because it's much easier for me to be present at my work and NOT be largely productive (jokes about people leaning on shovels not withstanding).

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#16

Post by Aromasin »

On a somewhat related note, I'd love a set of those pictured sleep capsules at my office. I've taken to running to my car to catch a quick 20 minute snooze during my lunch break, but it's way too bright, I'm uncomfortably sleeping sitting slightly upright, and I've got to have the windows open in a noisy car park. Having a cool, dark, dedicated sleeping pod would be much more civilised.

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#17

Post by tluyben2 »

crispyambulance wrote: post #9

Can anyone from China who has worked a 996 provide an account of what the work is like? Do they have heavy PMP-managed work with meeting paralysis or is it just sitting at your desk and being expected to magically perform, or is it just sitting around doing nothing and not being able to leave? All of those are their own types of hell, but they're all different. What are they doing in those 12 hours?

As I see my colleagues in China; they are mostly wasting time to stay the longest in the office. I know a few guys who have some shares, that either do not go home or go home for 3-4 hours only. They arrive at 6 am, leave at 8 pm and then go to KTV to do sales which basically means drink like a maniac. And then either back to the office or home for a quick nap. Their boss does not directly tell them to but he does go crazy when they underdeliver or deliver past deadlines, so they show they did anything. Not sure if it helps or not. Some of them seem happy and content doing that life and show no signs os stress even at 40y/o, some are walking dead.

The happy ones seem to be the ones that are well paid and get to sit and write code, while the unhappy ones deal with red tape and meetings. Which is what usually happens in my experience in the west as well.

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#18

Post by TheOperator »

apabepa wrote: post #5
drchewbacca wrote: post #2

Personally I can't do more than 2-3 hours of genuine "deep work" per day. That is high quality, focused, immersed thinking on a difficult problem and writing code. IMO people who work a large number of hours each week get cognitively slowed. They can't tell they've slowed down (partly because they don't have a control to compare against) and so think that if you do 80 hours per week you'll do twice as much as if you…

I recall hearing/reading that a lot of the time in the office is passive/suboptimal. The productivity gain is that you have the people there in standby. The gain is that the important work that do happen is not blocked by people being off work since you can pull them in instantly compared to "Only Bob knows X and he left for the day, lets schedule a meeting tomorrow"

Or you could just schedule people to arrive at the same time but have them work shorter hours.

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#19

Post by whoevercares »

crispyambulance wrote: post #9

Can anyone from China who has worked a 996 provide an account of what the work is like? Do they have heavy PMP-managed work with meeting paralysis or is it just sitting at your desk and being expected to magically perform, or is it just sitting around doing nothing and not being able to leave? All of those are their own types of hell, but they're all different. What are they doing in those 12 hours?

Not a direct answer, but most Chinese had undergone tougher hours and more dreadful win-or-your-life-is-screwed college examination pressure during high school. I was in a class where the morning session started from 5:30am and the day ends around 9pm(and we have full Sat and Sunday morning). Just imagine how mentally tough Chinese is when 1 point left you 10+k behind in regional ranking.

So honestly 996 means nothing for a lot of people (esp new grads). Even though there are protests now, I’m pessimistic it’ll shake anything eventually

Re: Some of China’s '996' tech tribe quit, seek less stress

#20

Post by hh42 »

crispyambulance wrote: post #9

Can anyone from China who has worked a 996 provide an account of what the work is like? Do they have heavy PMP-managed work with meeting paralysis or is it just sitting at your desk and being expected to magically perform, or is it just sitting around doing nothing and not being able to leave? All of those are their own types of hell, but they're all different. What are they doing in those 12 hours?

I worked for a Silicon Valley company. And now I am an employee of the Chinese 'A' company. There are endless features we have to develop. As a developer, I also need to concern about the business value of our project. Basically, I should handle two times of work than before.
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