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Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

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Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#121

Post by Nasrudith »

apexalpha wrote: post #51
rgbrenner wrote: post #5

China is highly unlikely to undermine the U.S.-led global system given it has been one of its biggest beneficiaries, Balakrishnan said. They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... and China wants the benefits of selling into that global market, while reserving their own market for themselves. Every day they are…

The "free trade" the US propagates is horrible for anyone not in the top 20% of society. Your manufacturing business has been decimated, many people outside coastal areas have been seeing declining standards of living. Even the EU has many import tariffs to protect its own industries from unfair competition from China and others. Why should someone who makes bikes in the EU compete with someone who does it for $0,50…

The why is because of relative advantage. Complaining about the 50 cent wage in a far lower cost of living country is like complaining that you cannot compete with a farmer's fields for corn with your urban rooftop gardens in plant pots. Well of course! That is where their advantages are - if you can trade without issues that is your cue to do something else more productive with your time.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#122

Post by msiyer »

wallace_f wrote: post #41
coldtea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... I.e. the kind of trade that they dictate and call "free", creating banana republics that cut them special deals, toppling governments when they don't like their decisions, using humanitarian and development funding (even from supposedly independent sources, like the…

The US does this, but I'm glad it's a country where we value being able to openly criticize our government for it. We have an independent judiciary, democratic institutions--what are structural Separations of Powers which is the most important structure of a civilization consistent with liberty. China doesn't have that. Saying the US also cheats the rules, too, is important, but shouldn't be confused with the reality…

The government goes to war\implements policy 1. People criticize.

The government continues war\policy 1. People continue criticizing.

The government starts war\implements policy 2. People criticize.

The government continues war\policy 1 and war\policy 2. People continue criticizing.

...

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#123

Post by coldtea »

mistermann wrote: post #33
coldtea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... I.e. the kind of trade that they dictate and call "free", creating banana republics that cut them special deals, toppling governments when they don't like their decisions, using humanitarian and development funding (even from supposedly independent sources, like the…

I think you raise a lot of valid points, the US is hardly innocent on a historic global basis. That being said, what's your take on China's behavior specifically, do you believe they are acting in a "fair" manner? Do you believe the advantages they enjoy are all justified? (Note: for the sake of this argument only, karmic payback for US historic behavior is not considered a valid justification.) EDIT: I'm curious why…

>That being said, what's your take on China's behavior specifically, do you believe they are acting in a "fair" manner?

Regarding trade: I think China (and any country) should have absolute say in how they do business, and who they want to do business with, who to allow in their internal market, etc.

And of course other countries should be free to reciprocate. That would be actually free trade in my book: with any nation being free to do business as it pleases (trade this, impose tariffs on that, etc).

The current "free trade" is mere lip service in the sense: "we promote free trade to force others to open their markets to us, but we ourselves use tariffs, wars, and whenever we like to further our interests". So, I don't like it, and I also don't like the "totally free" trade (which I find a pipe dream, as big players wil always work their way around it).

>Do you believe the advantages they enjoy are all justified? (Note: for the sake of this argument only, karmic payback for US historic behavior is not considered a valid justification.)

I think "fair" can only be considered in context. Something is fair or not according to how the actual players play the game, not according to some abstract rules. If everybody cheats, China is fair to cheat too. In that case, I don't think the "karmic payback" is irrelevant to answer the question, nor I believe it's mere US "historic behavior" (if the latter implies something that happened only in the distant past and is not active behavior it's benefiting from at the moment).

Regarding human rights: China is authoritarian (and on the fore-front of authoritarian abuse of technology). That said, the situation is accepted well by the vast majority of its population, who doesn't have much tradition of free elections in the first place, and who probably worries of the impact of a breakdown of the regime.

Naive pundits might call for the immediate dissolution of the CCP for example, but in 1.6 billion people state a power vacuum could lead to chaos, schism, and civil war than makes India/Pakistan, or modern day Iraq/Libya etc look like Disney movies. In any case, it's up to them, not to outsiders to call their shots (or to take sides in their internal power struggles). All kinds of countries had their popular revolutions, reforms, etc, if China (as a nation) doesn't like its regime, they're welcome to change it.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#124

Post by coldtea »

sgift wrote: post #86
coldtea wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them. Milton Friedman says that because he's a policy advisor of countries that benefit from others dropping their protectionist policies. At a certain state of development (and when you are not yet top dog to dictate what "free" trade means to other countries), you need some well balanced protectionist policies.…

> The US itself rose thanks to its protectionist policies. Britain too -- as did all others major powers when it served them well. Same with copying from others. Germany was famous for cheap, bad knock-offs of British products in the 19th century. That's the origin of "Made in Germany". And it seems China follows the exact same path. First the knock-offs were bad and people laughed. Then they got comparable in qualit…

Yes. And I would add Korea and Japan.

Before "Made in Japan" became a sign of pride, Japanese products (including cars) were ridiculed as cheap imitations and rip-offs of western inventions. This changed in the 70s.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#125

Post by xuki »

cc81 wrote: post #105
wallace_f wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does this, but I'm glad it's a country where we value being able to openly criticize our government for it. We have an independent judiciary, democratic institutions--what are structural Separations of Powers which is the most important structure of a civilization consistent with liberty. China doesn't have that. Saying the US also cheats the rules, too, is important, but shouldn't be confused with the reality…

What does that have to do with free trade and the actions around it? I mean a Chinese person can say that they are glad to live in a country that does not invade other countries, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

It’s not to the extent of the US but China did invade other countries in the past. Vietnamese people sure want to have some words with you.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#126

Post by coldtea »

Barrin92 wrote: post #17
coldtea wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them. Milton Friedman says that because he's a policy advisor of countries that benefit from others dropping their protectionist policies. At a certain state of development (and when you are not yet top dog to dictate what "free" trade means to other countries), you need some well balanced protectionist policies.…

The infant industry argument is controversial, but assuming for a second it is correct, how is that related to the discussion about what course the US should take towards China right now ? The US does not need industry protection. The US is the most advanced country on the planet. When the US administration gets into a tradewar that makes Chinese commodities more expensive and stops American farmers from selling soyb…

>The infant industry argument is controversial, but assuming for a second it is correct, how is that related to the discussion about what course the US should take towards China right now? The US does not need industry protection. The US is the most advanced country on the planet.

The US "is the most advanced country on the planet" because it constantly uses "industry protection". Besides tariffs and subsidies, the whole power of the US state and military is constantly used to further US trade and resource interests, enforce favorable trade rules, ignore this or that treaty that doesn't benefit the US industry (e.g. environment or child labor laws), and so on.

>When the US administration gets into a tradewar that makes Chinese commodities more expensive and stops American farmers from selling soybeans, how exactly is this to the benefit of anyone?

For one, it's of benefit of those making (and/or) selling commodities of their own.

Heck, even American workers, who might have to pay more for Chinese-made commodities, but they also get jobs again to make similar commodities in the US. A paycheck + more expensive goods trumps being unemployed + the availability of cheapo Chinese goods.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#127

Post by stallmanite »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #106
sgift wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has many problems, but there's a big difference between people being unhappy with you and being send into "reeducation camps" if the government doesn't like what you say.

There's also a major difference between being sent to reeducation camps and being killed by a drone strike. The US may tolerate dissent inside their borders better, but far worse overall.

Not sure re-education camp is a step up from drone strike. Depends on your priorities I suppose.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#128

Post by [deleted] »

cc81 wrote: post #105
wallace_f wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does this, but I'm glad it's a country where we value being able to openly criticize our government for it. We have an independent judiciary, democratic institutions--what are structural Separations of Powers which is the most important structure of a civilization consistent with liberty. China doesn't have that. Saying the US also cheats the rules, too, is important, but shouldn't be confused with the reality…

What does that have to do with free trade and the actions around it? I mean a Chinese person can say that they are glad to live in a country that does not invade other countries, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

[deleted]

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#129

Post by boomboomsubban »

stallmanite wrote: post #127
boomboomsubban wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a major difference between being sent to reeducation camps and being killed by a drone strike. The US may tolerate dissent inside their borders better, but far worse overall.

Not sure re-education camp is a step up from drone strike. Depends on your priorities I suppose.

If you prefer death to a reeducation camp, that choice is likely available to you. The dead have no choice.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#130

Post by jcadam »

Barrin92 wrote: post #17
coldtea wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them. Milton Friedman says that because he's a policy advisor of countries that benefit from others dropping their protectionist policies. At a certain state of development (and when you are not yet top dog to dictate what "free" trade means to other countries), you need some well balanced protectionist policies.…

The infant industry argument is controversial, but assuming for a second it is correct, how is that related to the discussion about what course the US should take towards China right now ? The US does not need industry protection. The US is the most advanced country on the planet. When the US administration gets into a tradewar that makes Chinese commodities more expensive and stops American farmers from selling soyb…

> The US is the most advanced country on the planet.

This has only been true since about the mid 20th century and is by no means guaranteed to continue. Other countries are also populated by clever humans who would love to overtake us.

As an American I'm inclined to be supportive of measures taken by my government to keep the US in the top spot.

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