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Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

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Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#91
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

East Asia is vassal to the US at the moment... I think countries like Singapore, Korea, etc do not want the US, Korea, to leave. They are between a rock and a hard place and want to balance the US and China in order not to become too dependent on one and to benefit from both. Singapore, which is quite "China-friendly" is saying exactly that. What I find interesting is that the West in general, and obviously the US in…

> Singapore, which is quite "China-friendly" is saying exactly that. No, that is a fundamental misjudge. Singapore can be safely regarded as one of major anti China forces in the region. If you just look back several years, Singapore actually managed to got itself in the anti China side on almost every single recent major events.

Singapore is certainly not anti-China, and this speech shows it.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#92
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... I.e. the kind of trade that they dictate and call "free", creating banana republics that cut them special deals, toppling governments when they don't like their decisions, using humanitarian and development funding (even from supposedly independent sources, like the…

The US does this, but I'm glad it's a country where we value being able to openly criticize our government for it. We have an independent judiciary, democratic institutions--what are structural Separations of Powers which is the most important structure of a civilization consistent with liberty. China doesn't have that. Saying the US also cheats the rules, too, is important, but shouldn't be confused with the reality…

Rhetoric- and you believe it! Don’t you know where those slogans come from? Well-paid researchers - how do you say it? - "think tanks," funded by big businesses. What is that? A "think tank"?

China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing - unlike U.N.-governed countries - to give its people the freedom to do what they want. The West, so afraid of strong government, now has no government. Only financial power.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#93

China is highly unlikely to undermine the U.S.-led global system given it has been one of its biggest beneficiaries, Balakrishnan said. They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... and China wants the benefits of selling into that global market, while reserving their own market for themselves. Every day they are…

I think that's a valid take. But OTOH, broad, principled terms like "free trade" mask some of the nuance and realities of that history. Free markets have always come thick with caveats to suit whatever goals the authors/negotiators had at the time. The US, for example, generally prioritized investment access and largely got it. They also prioritized economic infrastructure, like the dollar standard and globalising th…

> As he ended this speech it is said that Cato shook out the folds of his toga and contrived to drop some Libyan figs on the floor of the Senate-house, and when the senators admired their size and beauty he remarked that the country which produced them was only three days’ sail from Rome.

Afterwards he adopted a still more forceful method of driving home his point: whenever his opinion was called for on any subject, he invariably concluded with the words, ‘And furthermore it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed!’ (Lives, ‘Cato the Elder’ 27)

The Carthage during 20 years after Second Punic War became export powerhouse and it was even able to repay war idemnities 10 years ahead of schedule.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#94

China is highly unlikely to undermine the U.S.-led global system given it has been one of its biggest beneficiaries, Balakrishnan said. They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... and China wants the benefits of selling into that global market, while reserving their own market for themselves. Every day they are…

The "free trade" the US propagates is horrible for anyone not in the top 20% of society. Your manufacturing business has been decimated, many people outside coastal areas have been seeing declining standards of living. Even the EU has many import tariffs to protect its own industries from unfair competition from China and others. Why should someone who makes bikes in the EU compete with someone who does it for $0,50…

[deleted]

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#95
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't stopping other countries doing the same. The world might be a better place if everyone stole and remixed IP

> The world might be a better place if everyone stole and remixed IP Until it becomes unprofitable to invest in innovation

You may be mistaken about the source of a lot of "deep innovation". I know I was, when I was younger. Here is a nice example that helped shatter some of the myths I myself believed, in this case it was that Silicon Valley was the product of free enterprise:

https://youtu.be/ZTC_RxWN_xo (Secret History of Silicon Valley - Computer History Museum, Mountain View)

In reality capitalism only took over after massive (debt based!) spending by (US) government during WWII. The risky stuff doesn't happen in companies. Even things like e-cars and rockets, see Elon Musk and his companies as the most prominent examples, didn't invent any of the basics. They just take well-established concepts.

It's not either or, it's specialization: The low-probability-of-success stuff for larger society (government mostly, at this point), and when there is something to build on the more focused business people and entrepreneurs who want to see an ROI are better at executing from there on.

But, back to the comment you replied to, basic research, the risky stuff, is better off being open and available.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#96
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. And every US company is by default basically banned from China unless they want to let you in.

I wonder, how they will sing if Xi will get angry for real this time and call for something like blanket ban on exports to US. If you think of China as a rational player who can be "mindgamed around" take in mind that Xi has goood record of shooting himself in the foot politically, which he has been doing consistently through his reign. Americans have really have nothing to mentally reference when dealing with this t…

US being the world's superpower has experience with communists, dictators, royals and all kind of leaders. The only issue here is that China is the 2nd world economic power so it's a bit harder to use the stick.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like what many in the UK thought they could get with Brexit, and not the reality of Brexit.

One of the main leaders of the Leave campaign and someone who highly likely to be the next Prime Minister of the UK literally said: "My policy on cake is pro having it and pro eating it."

Exactly. I actually can't tell if you're trying to raise a point of disagreement?

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#98

Isn't the ball in China's court here? I am not sure what is the expectation of US in this. China has a completely closed market while at the same time they are reaping the benefits of selling in markets of other countries with no penalties. How is that fair? Also, they force companies to share their technologies/IP if they are interested in coming into Chinese markets - and then they just steal it to undercut the for…

I agree on the market access point, to an extent. There an assymetry that can't stand forever, given the size of China's economy today. But, free trade has never really been free. There are tons and tons of caveats, exceptions, special rules and bad faith. So, I think it's misleading to represent china as "closed" and other countries as "open." On the second point, I disagree. IP is not some basic, natural law. It's…

> IP is not some basic, natural law. It's a relatively recent invention, ostensibly invented to promote certain economic incentives. Why is china morally obligated to respect it?

> At any given point in time, the biggest effect of an IP system is how it affects the current portfolio of patents & copyrights. That's what tends to dictate the rules. When copyright law is updated, it's the impact on Disney's IP asset portfolio that's considered... not future works that will be created. It's a similar dynamic for patents.

> Why should china (or any country) have to subscribe to an IP system under which they don't own as many patents.

To an extent I agree with you. There are a great many problems with the current state of "Intellectual Property" law and I there's some merit to the argument that it would benefit humanity as a whole if it were scaled back drastically or even eliminated entirely.

However, China not only does not enforce US patents and copyrights but also engages in extensive industrial espionage to steal trade secrets. Even if we did not have copyright and patent law, such actions would and should still be illegal. Qualitatively, I think there's a big difference between reverse-engineering and making your own version of some company's product, and hacking into their servers and stealing the data to make it or paying an employee of theirs to exfiltrate the source artifacts for you.

Chinese companies do both. The former is sometimes permissible, at other times may violate patent or copyright law, which may or may not be seen as a bad thing depending on your views of the matter. But the latter should be rightfully condemned.

There's also the argument that even if patents are granted too freely and abused, and copyright extended far too long, that if China wants to engage in the world economy then they need to play by the same rules as everyone else, and that if they do not play by those rules then other countries are entirely justified in retaliating.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#99
post #60
post #53

As someone who watches the very unusual moderation of China-critical comments on HN (+3 one moment, -3 a few hours later) I'm wary of a political piece praising China hitting #1 on HN. I also don't see the value of Singapore - which is openly anti democratic ( https://www.huffpost.com/entry/singapore-challenges-democrac... ) providing advice here - as the same concerns about authoritarian corruption that apply to Chi…

it is up to each nation to choose it's form of government. it is not one size fits all

Saying the people of China have 'chosen not to choose' is bizarre and disingenuous - you are twisting the notion of freedom to imply Chinese people have chosen not to be free. The Chinese people have never in recent memory chosen the Chinese communist party to represent them exclusively.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#100

China is highly unlikely to undermine the U.S.-led global system given it has been one of its biggest beneficiaries, Balakrishnan said. They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... and China wants the benefits of selling into that global market, while reserving their own market for themselves. Every day they are…

US seems to promote free trade for the industries it controls. When it looses to competition it invokes national security, military intervention etc...Trump made clear what was already known. I am a free trade believer but you must be stupid not to see that US doesn't want free trade. It wants free trade where it works for them, their "free trade", in US dollars of course. If you compete with the US you become a foe,…

It's more like, if you don't have steel/oil/planes/guns/CPUs you don't have an army (or more specifically, producers of the above can deny you resources when you need them most, in war).
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