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European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

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Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#31

Post by ovi256 »

pergadad wrote: post #9
ovi256 wrote: post #2

I suspect it's only a fraction of employees that work more than they're supposed to, but as they're workaholics that work a lot more, they move the mean and it has a big positive impact for employers. If this is true, this ruling is bound to have an impact on EU economic activity. And I don't see how it can be good, given that nobody's thinking that EU labor is too cheap. If it's applied at face value, it can only re…

This is about labor rights. If you're paid for 40h your employer should not be able to press you to do more without compensation. Easy as that. If the added working time has much value they'll find a way to compensate. This way it simply means that you can't force a fastfood worker to do closing shift and then still clean after they've done their work. Outside of the pure "pair of hands" work there is a lot of eviden…

Yes, there is clear tension between labor rights and labor competivity, that's clearly established.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#32

Post by holstvoogd »

ITT: Office & IT workers who have no clue that this might not be just about them but the millions of factory workers, shop attendants, builders etc that are forced to work overtime without pay. And you better not say anything, because you are very replaceable.

My personal experience? I've had to record my work times accurately for a few years, it was kinda annoying, but also freeing. Wanted to work in the weekend? no problem. Wanted to leave early or sleep in? no problem. Now I 'just kinda have to make sure I work my 40 hours' and always feel pressure to stay 9 till' 5 and do as little as possible outside of that.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#33

Post by sgift »

mar77i wrote: post #26

The ruling is strange, because in my opinion part of a modern working environment would be driven by some form of mutual trust. If you put the burden of "proof of accomplishment" on the workers, that may stifle workplace attractiveness and pose a bureaucratic hurdle. Hence cracking down on untracked, yet (or even therefore) quality employment relationships would naturally appear a step in the wrong direction. I get i…

> The ruling is strange, because in my opinion part of a modern working environment would be driven by some form of mutual trust.

That's a nice theory which in most cases is abused by employers left and right. If you really have a mutual beneficial, trustful relationship with your employer this won't change it. If it does, it was all a lie.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#34

Post by 762236 »

brador wrote: post #4
ovi256 wrote: post #2

I suspect it's only a fraction of employees that work more than they're supposed to, but as they're workaholics that work a lot more, they move the mean and it has a big positive impact for employers. If this is true, this ruling is bound to have an impact on EU economic activity. And I don't see how it can be good, given that nobody's thinking that EU labor is too cheap. If it's applied at face value, it can only re…

There’s more to life than productivity. The quality of life for EU citizens is high and getting higher.

Outside work the quality of life is good. But many people can't find employment in their field, which clobbers quality of life.

I work few hours with great productivity --- would this new ruling make me have to increase my hours to keep my pay?

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#35

Post by mcv »

I've got mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I hate the added administration of overly detailed time-keeping, on the other hand, it's often too easy to employers to pressure employees to work for more hours than they're actually paid.

The gripping hand, though, is that many employers aren't interested in hours, but in results. If they just pay you for certain results, and getting those results takes too much time, is it because the employer is too demanding? Or is it an employee who is slow to do that kind of work, but still prefer it over other kinds of work? It might also lead employers to pressure employees to work faster within the hours they're supposed to work, and fire those who can't keep up. I don't think it's going to solve the problem of overly demanding employers, though it probably helps in some cases.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#36

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

holstvoogd wrote: post #32

ITT: Office & IT workers who have no clue that this might not be just about them but the millions of factory workers, shop attendants, builders etc that are forced to work overtime without pay. And you better not say anything, because you are very replaceable. My personal experience? I've had to record my work times accurately for a few years, it was kinda annoying, but also freeing. Wanted to work in the weekend? no…

> Wanted to work in the weekend? no problem.

Except that in many countries in Europe you aren't allowed to work on Sundays, and time tracking will be used to enforce it.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#37

Post by sgift »

TomMarius wrote: post #13
panpanna wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh the "let's be sensible" argument... Please do not follow this road. According to EU the main target of Russian disinformation campaign during current EU parlamentet elections is to spread the picture that EU is colapsing due to bureaucracy/corruption/incompetence/all power moving to Brussels/migration/Islam (select one depending on your target) while their country is solid as rock. They have a ~1 billion Euro budg…

So we can never argue about it because the russians might try to use it against us? I would rather know the EU has problems so I can get away in time.

If the EU has problems we can discuss those left and right. The difference between having problems and making them up is relevant here.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#38

Post by maaaats »

holstvoogd wrote: post #32

ITT: Office & IT workers who have no clue that this might not be just about them but the millions of factory workers, shop attendants, builders etc that are forced to work overtime without pay. And you better not say anything, because you are very replaceable. My personal experience? I've had to record my work times accurately for a few years, it was kinda annoying, but also freeing. Wanted to work in the weekend? no…

It's a common theme here on HN when it comes to worker's rights and unions. Being a one-percenter where companies bend over backwards to cater to you, it's easy to dismiss these things.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#39

Post by adwn »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #16
adwn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obviously there is no expectation that each minute is recorded Bingo! In practice, employees will just fill in whatever values are convenient. Nothing's going to change for an employee who was pressured (explicitly or implicitly) to work unpaid overtime – now they'll be pressured (explicitly or implicitly) to not track the time they're working after hours. It's just more bureaucracy for everyone, including for hone…

> And yes, I'm very bitter about this. Bureaucratic, ivory-tower decisions like this one are partly responsible for phenomenons like Brexit and the German AfD party, which in turn pose a danger to the prosperity and peace we enjoy in Europe. And yet time tracking most people want. This practice has 70% plus Support in Germany and Austria. From this I gather most workplaces are pretty horrible.

> And yet time tracking most people want. This practice has 70% plus Support in Germany and Austria.

Source, please? That number looks pretty specific, so I presume you have a statistic to back it up.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#40

Post by toolslive »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #36
holstvoogd wrote: post #32

ITT: Office & IT workers who have no clue that this might not be just about them but the millions of factory workers, shop attendants, builders etc that are forced to work overtime without pay. And you better not say anything, because you are very replaceable. My personal experience? I've had to record my work times accurately for a few years, it was kinda annoying, but also freeing. Wanted to work in the weekend? no…

> Wanted to work in the weekend? no problem. Except that in many countries in Europe you aren't allowed to work on Sundays, and time tracking will be used to enforce it.

It's actually more liberal than that. You are allowed to work on Sunday, but it's more expensive for your employer as they need to compensate the discomfort. Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that). In the end, your employer probably will not let you work Sundays if it isn't worth it (to them).
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