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PHP in 2019

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Re: PHP in 2019

#341

Post by djitz »

nickjj wrote: post #27
owenwil wrote: post #2

I've actually been really impressed with Laravel after switching back to PHP for a few projects. Not only is the developer tooling experience some of the best I've experienced, it's just really the only framework I've ever experienced with a high quality ecosystem of tools—from Forge[1], which makes it dead-simple to deploy a Laravel app into production to things like Horizon, for managing Redis queues. A great examp…

There are comparable things with other frameworks too. For example I wrote a course on building a SAAS app with Flask. It's available at: https://buildasaasappwithflask.com/ It covers everything about user registration, profiles, subscription billing, 1 time billing, invoicing, and about 50 other things you would likely want to do in a SAAS app or any application really. The course comes with the source code along wi…

Tokens are issued from within the Spark customer dashboard and the token is required in order to pull the repo during install. It’s basically the honor system.

Re: PHP in 2019

#342

Post by qaq »

dominicl wrote: post #316
momokoko wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue with modern PHP is that it's essentially becoming Java. And with the JVM and the Java ecosystem, what is the compelling reason to not just pick Java at this point? With Java you are basically writing exactly what you would be writing with PHP, except with more language features and the ability to opt into other languages on the JVM like Kotlin and Scala. The modern additions are fantastic for projects and te…

Interesting analogy, performance wise PHP has made impressive progress. On par with node and the JVM. But Java code specifically is just so bloated. And then there is the worker-per-request model in PHP - All resources isolated to a worker and cleanup on exit. This avoids global garbage collection freezes by design. Something you would get otherwise only from Elixir/Erlang natively. Compared to the JVM that allows PH…

"On par with node" wow looks fairly close "on par with JVM" thats a big stretch

Re: PHP in 2019

#343

Post by ukyrgf »

davidy123 wrote: post #264
toastal wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno... Their home page looks like something out of the Panera Bread playbook looking at the homepage. 'Web artisans'? Why is it 'clean' because it has an absurd amount of whitespace and comments of platitudes for the code example?

PHP frameworks crack me up. They so often claim they're "powerful." What does that mean exactly, who is that language aimed at? Then there is Laravel, why "artisans?" The word generally means pre-industrial. In my mind, that evokes devs doing edits on live code. Also, "Laravel" sounds like something to do with larvae. Then there's Drupal, which for the longest time was "community plumbing," which did match the experi…

The command line tool for Laravel is named 'artisan'. You use it to do everything in Laravel, from setting up controllers/views to seeding databases.

Re: PHP in 2019

#344

Post by bartimus »

StevePerkins wrote: post #104

On one hand, I do see that HN (and probably Reddit) live in a bubble. Where most of the darling languages and tools have very low use in the real-world. And where most of the languages and tooling that actually run the real-world go un-discussed, or simply dismissed, because they're boring and don't appeal to students and entry-level devs working on side projects. I realize that the perspective most rookies get from…

I think the bubble has to do with purists vs pragmatists.

I once joined a Java team as a front-end dev (I'm full-stack). They would do the back-end. They had done everything by the book perfectly. Following all the best practices. But the back-end wasn't doing what it needed to do by a long shot. They were stuck. Meaning I couldn't make progress. So I cooked up a simple (temporary) PHP back-end so I could easily build the needed queries. All nicely secured with LDAP. I was literally running circles around their solution. But it was blasphemy.

Eventually they ported my code into Java. Some portions literally one-to-one. Nobody will ever know the critical role PHP played in this Java success story.

Re: PHP in 2019

#345

Post by ken »

pilif wrote: post #62
richardwhiuk wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be changed. You have some syntax to opt into a later release (e.g. doing ` In a major release, you then get rid of a load of cruft.

> You have some syntax to opt into a later release (e.g. doing ` imagine the exponential complexity as old behaviours need to be kept around for various levels of opting in.

The complexity still has to exist somewhere, right? By avoiding this, they're just keeping it in all the developers' heads, rather than a legacy mode in the compiler.

I'm not sure that's the wrong decision, but it's not a great one, either. Too much complexity in the implementation can kill the project. Too much complexity in the language can kill a person's hope of learning it.

Re: PHP in 2019

#346

Post by pavel_lishin »

virtuexru wrote: post #307
pavel_lishin wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PHP made a lot of careers for developers as they were able to fake it until they made it while learning how to code & providing significant value to a businesses. Unfortunately it also provided a lot of careers to developers who never got to the "make it" stage.

Why on earth is that unfortunate? Seems like a positive thing to me, even if some people don't make it to the pinnacle of their craft so what? If someone has gainful employment and meaning in their life I see that as a net positive.

> Why on earth is that unfortunate?

Because many times, they write bad, buggy software. Because other people end up having to maintain it, or fix it, or replace it. Or they release things like plugins that malfunction, but because they're the best out of a set of bad options, end up being the de-facto solution that everyone has to deal with.

I'm not talking about people who build software that works ok, but has bad patterns. I'm talking about people who write cash register software that uses floating-point math to do calculations, or Wordpress plugins that fill up error logs with garbage or nearly DDoS sites because they don't understand how to write efficient code.

Not that I've done any of the above as an early PHP developer, no sir...

Re: PHP in 2019

#347

Post by francislavoie »

brlewis wrote: post #106
simias wrote: post #51

As far as I'm concerned the bridges have burned a long time ago and I definitely can't see myself giving PHP a second chance. That being said, if I'm wrong and PHP has really managed to become a decent language (or at least something that's not completely insane) its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like. Is performance that much of a big deal for most people? In a world where Rub…

>I assume that these obsolete functions and operators still linger for backward compatibility? If so how do you avoid them? This. If there isn't a linter that bombs out on those things that used to be standard PHP, modern PHP is a non-starter. There are too many bad examples out there that will make their way into modern code if you let them.

https://www.exakat.io/

https://github.com/phpstan/phpstan

https://github.com/phan/phan

Lots of great static analyzers to run in CI and during development to catch all kinds of issues.

Also, https://github.com/FriendsOfPhp/PHP-CS-Fixer to clean up code syntax (configurable rules, has good presets).

Re: PHP in 2019

#348

Post by wwweston »

mywittyname wrote: post #178
swalsh wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was pretty anti-PHP before I worked for a multi-billion dollar company that was built on top of it. It's not a beautiful language, but it offers a lot of side benefits in terms of dev-ops, and tooling, and frameworks. As a company, the language was not something that held us back. The company moved really fast, and PHP was a large part a big part of why. In my career over the past 14 years I've done web work using…

I have to echo this. I worked on a data pipeline that was a mountain of PHP scripts bolted together with Bash and it was such a breeze to maintain. Using Symfony ensures that every command is well documented and consistent in design and use. Something I never appreciated about PHP until recently is that character encoding is so much more robust in PHP than other languages. We were forced to replace our pipeline with…

> character encoding is so much more robust in PHP than other languages.

This is not what I expected -- my limited past experiences with anything outside of Latin-1 using PHP have been perplexing and not smooth (and I generally like PHP well enough). Can you elaborate on what features or approach can make things robust?

Re: PHP in 2019

#349

Post by DCoder »

simion314 wrote: post #338
DCoder wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Features that I miss in PHP: - expressive type system with generics, union types, literal types, basically TypeScript. I can say "this function returns a string" or "this function returns an array", but not "this function returns an array of strings". - specialized collection/hashmap data structures with good support across third-party libraries. Having one array() structure acting as both a sequence and an associati…

I am not trying to say PHP > TS, just wanted to let you know in case you still work with PHP codebase that you can get good enough type checks with PHPDoc, here is a good example for the case you mentioned , in Intellij the built in linter will mark as warnings when you use types wrong https://i.imgur.com/NqlAsTd.png (zoom a bit out and sorry for the bad crop) About the array issue don't we have same situation with J…

IntelliJ will detect cases like that, yes. But it is difficult and slow to get IntelliJ to inspect your whole project like `tsc` does. With PHPStan or such tools you can do that more easily, but they still have interop problems due to non-standard annotation syntax. Having native support for such type expressions would be much better.

ES6 has Map and Array, which are perfectly sufficient and distinguishable from each other. PHP core only has array() which tries to do everything. You can use array() to build a collection or an associative array and you cannot force it to only behave as one of those. Even Zend's PHP certification contains questions about what happens if you try to push a value into an array that uses associative keys. This is a joke.

I prefer React over Angular as well, but interactivity was not on my list of goals. I want a template syntax that combines valid markup, escaping by default, and TSX-style typechecking. Basically, I want XHP [0]. There is no other template engine for PHP that validates "values passed into this template" against "values used in this template" like TSX can, and no engine that ensures you're generating valid XML/HTML markup. I certainly agree that this is far less important than powerful types, but hey, one can dream :)

[0]: https://github.com/hhvm/xhp-lib

Re: PHP in 2019

#350

Post by the_duke »

dabernathy89 wrote: post #340
codedokode wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like their code and architecture though. The code is ugly because it is built around static methods instead of proper OOP, and uses magic methods a lot. It is not easy to read. Also, they love to invent their own names for existing things. For example, they named a folder with interfaces as "Contracts", although there are only interfaces. You are using "Ruby on Rails" as some sign of quality, but if it uses m…

> it is built around static methods instead of proper OOP The fake case against Laravel that never dies . The truth is found in the docs: https://laravel.com/docs/5.8/facades > Facades provide a "static" interface to classes that are available in the application's service container. Laravel ships with many facades which provide access to almost all of Laravel's features. Laravel facades serve as "static proxies" to u…

What isn't fake is that Laravel uses magic methods everywhere, especially in the ORM layer.

There are way too many magic things happening under the hood for my taste.

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