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John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

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Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#121

Post by Thaxll »

Nition wrote: post #3

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was the genesis of client-side prediction for games. If you don't know what that is, Valve has some good documentation on it (relating to Source engine, but it's the same concept).[1] Latency was still a problem even with CSP because we didn't yet have lag compensation on the server. So although you got an authoritative server (no cheating) and instant inputs (no ro…

I searched the entier HN article and everyone missed a big paper, the tribe networking model: https://www.gamedevs.org/uploads/tribes-networking-model.pdf

This is one of the most influential paper for multiplayer games. ( probably #1 ). Tribe was the first game to have client side prediction and rollback, this is what most games use nowdays.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#122

Post by ungzd »

soulofmischief wrote: post #25
delhanty wrote: post #11

Presumably by HN readers, saved to archive already 7 times today! https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://raw.githubusercontent....

Is there a good browser extension for archiving pages in one click? Firefox.

There's https://warcreate.com/, but it's for Chrome. I don't know details of it, but aren't both browsers use the same API for extensions? Then probably it's possible to port it, or to install right away.

It creates .warc files, which are supported by Internet Archive. I don't know if it integrates uploaded .warc files to Wayback Machine, but Archive Team uses this format to upload manually archived sites to Internet Archive.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#123

Post by jasonrhaas »

nickjj wrote: post #88
SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #19

Carmack's dotplans are always interesting history to read. If you weren't a gamer (or alive) at the time when quakeworld came around, you might not appreciate how amazing it was for multiplayer games on the internet. On dial-up, you were lucky to have 150ms latency. Before client-side-prediction, that latency applied to every action you took in game, including player movements. Hit the up-arrow, and you wait 150-300m…

Sadly we live in a world today where some local code editors could really benefit from CSP because they add 100-200ms of latency to every character you press. I'm not sure if it's funny or sad that there's more key press latency typing into most local Electron apps than connecting to a Quake 3 server 200 miles away back when I had 56k dial-up in 2000. If you want to fast forward to today's internet, with an average i…

Typing delay is a pet peeve of mine. This is why I have stuck with Sublime and Vim even though there are more powerful editors out there like VsCode or PyCharm.

If you want a fast editor, switch to Sublime 3.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#124

Post by bob1029 »

k__ wrote: post #84

Is he happy with his Oculus job after the FB deal or will he leave after the Quest comes out?

I always wondered about how he felt about that role. I feel like Carmack could still run one of the best software shops on earth, even if he had to start from scratch. The man invented the concept of "it will be ready when it's done", and has an incredibly positive attitude towards handling difficult (challenging) problems.

If the stars aligned and Carmack decided to get back into making new software-based gaming experiences (especially around the DTX/ATX area), I would be incredibly tempted to investigate opportunities.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#125

Post by sly010 »

skykooler wrote: post #113
sly010 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make the delay much worse if you mis-predict the users action. Games would also have to add additional 100ms lag for all important events.

If you had a big enough server, you could render multiple frames for each possible user action...

True, that could work, and the two frames are probably very similar, so wouldn't even require that much more bandwidth. As someone here pointed out, however, the game controller is connected to the cloud directly, so the display doesn't even know of the inputs until the roundtrip is already done.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#126

Post by ungzd »

Maybe FRP (functional reactive programming) can give more abilities to reason when designing networked shooters and internal simulation in games. Just like React had revolutionized GUIs (it's not FRP library, but has ideas from it). With FRP, it's even possible to build "tickless" game logic. However, for now it has limited practicability and I never seen something complete that was built with FRP.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#127

Post by Gene_Parmesan »

jasonrhaas wrote: post #123
nickjj wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly we live in a world today where some local code editors could really benefit from CSP because they add 100-200ms of latency to every character you press. I'm not sure if it's funny or sad that there's more key press latency typing into most local Electron apps than connecting to a Quake 3 server 200 miles away back when I had 56k dial-up in 2000. If you want to fast forward to today's internet, with an average i…

Typing delay is a pet peeve of mine. This is why I have stuck with Sublime and Vim even though there are more powerful editors out there like VsCode or PyCharm. If you want a fast editor, switch to Sublime 3.

I find VS Code to be just about the only electron-based editor I can use without getting frustrated with typing latency. It's usually not noticeable unless the process is chugging for unrelated reasons.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#128

Post by ggambetta »

Nition wrote: post #3

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was the genesis of client-side prediction for games. If you don't know what that is, Valve has some good documentation on it (relating to Source engine, but it's the same concept).[1] Latency was still a problem even with CSP because we didn't yet have lag compensation on the server. So although you got an authoritative server (no cheating) and instant inputs (no ro…

Here's my humble contribution to provide a clearer explanation, and a simple live demo with source code, of client-side prediction, entity interpolation, and server reconciliation: https://gabrielgambetta.com/client-server-game-architecture.... It's a relatively popular alternative source to Valve's (excellent) documents.

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#129

Post by shayolden »

I a developer on FortressOne - a still actively developed continuation of the original QuakeWorld Team Fortress. We have an extremely active community with games taking place nightly. It's a testament to Carmack that his code from 1996 is still widely used in 2019.

https://www.fortressone.org

Re: John Carmack on QuakeWorld latency and business model (1996)

#130

Post by bsaul »

nickjj wrote: post #88
SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #19

Carmack's dotplans are always interesting history to read. If you weren't a gamer (or alive) at the time when quakeworld came around, you might not appreciate how amazing it was for multiplayer games on the internet. On dial-up, you were lucky to have 150ms latency. Before client-side-prediction, that latency applied to every action you took in game, including player movements. Hit the up-arrow, and you wait 150-300m…

Sadly we live in a world today where some local code editors could really benefit from CSP because they add 100-200ms of latency to every character you press. I'm not sure if it's funny or sad that there's more key press latency typing into most local Electron apps than connecting to a Quake 3 server 200 miles away back when I had 56k dial-up in 2000. If you want to fast forward to today's internet, with an average i…

my iOS phone freezes approx twice a day for 2 seconds whenever i type text. I remember playing with the keyboard buffer overflow sound when i was playing on my cpc464 (as in 64k of ram and 4Mhz cpu) in the 80s, and it took me longer than that to trigger it.

"The mess we're in" famous talk by joe amstrong should be transformed into a website listing all of those absurdities, as a way to public shame the culprits.

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