Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 357 posts

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#281

Post by SilasX »

jackschultz wrote: post #278

The thing that always bugs me with these arguments is that people don't seem to bring up the idea of creating a new legal class for these types of workers. Arguing whether those workers fit contractors or employees isn't great to read about because frankly, they fit in neither. From Uber/Lyft drivers, to Door Dash delivery workers, to any other sort of up and coming on demand work which I'm sure keep coming and evolv…

Agreed, but I would say that the whole employment/social insurance system is due for a big "refactoring". We have this hodge-podge of sorta-overlapping requirements based on long-obsolete and assumptions and models about how the labor force works that's we're expecting to meet some desiderata that it also incentivizes against.

We've already lost the game when we're counting angels on a pin to decide whether you're "really" an employee so your employer can be forced to provide insurance or pay into unemployment. But these things shouldn't be coupled at all. Everyone, regardless of how they get income, should pay into an employer-decoupled fund that can pay out for unemployment or health insurance. That frees up admin costs from employers and cleans up labor markets to compete over things that are actually relevant.

Contractor vs employee distinctions should only matter for liability, not for taxes or benefits.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#282

Post by Kye »

creaghpatr wrote: post #257
Kaotique wrote: post #255

Uber represents the new kind of company where all the risk is pushed to the employee, while all the profits are pulled to the company. Making all your employees supposedly outside contractors facilitates a race to the bottom between these contractors. Same with food delivery companies. The drivers have to provide and maintain the vehicle, organize their own health care, pension and insurance. Some companies even disa…

It's the same with industries like film in the US, only difference is the hourly rate gets to be pretty high after a few years of work and presumed advancement.

Film has unions. Remember the 2007-2008 Writers Guild strike? People dismissed their demand for fair streaming residuals. "Streaming won't go anywhere, give me back my TV!"

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#283

Post by maxxxxx »

creaghpatr wrote: post #257
Kaotique wrote: post #255

Uber represents the new kind of company where all the risk is pushed to the employee, while all the profits are pulled to the company. Making all your employees supposedly outside contractors facilitates a race to the bottom between these contractors. Same with food delivery companies. The drivers have to provide and maintain the vehicle, organize their own health care, pension and insurance. Some companies even disa…

It's the same with industries like film in the US, only difference is the hourly rate gets to be pretty high after a few years of work and presumed advancement.

In film you have a chance to be a real freelancer. You have a track record and you can jump between different productions. You can work your way up. An Uber driver has none of this. He will always stay a driver, never move up, have no reputation to increase market worth. It’s a total dead end.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#284

Post by erikig »

danharaj wrote: post #280
jorvi wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're often implicitly saying that they want to strip job security and labor protections from the people doing X and consumer protections from the people using X. I'd say its much more likely when the average person wants 'Uber but for X' they mean cheaper prices for better service than X. Taxis got completely destroyed by Uber because they are often rude, unclean, (unpredictably) expensive and scammy. Hotels fee…

OP said "pitches", so was talking about entrepreneurs and VC's, not average people.

You'd be surprised how many entrepreneurs and VC's are average people...

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#286

Post by francisofascii »

ionised wrote: post #201
francisofascii wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before globalization, rural communities had walkable towns, maybe just a few blocks, but enough stores to fulfill daily needs without the use of a car. Now all those communities have is big box stores several miles away.

That's not true about the United States. The entire US road network has been designed with cars in mind since at least the turn of the 20th century.

Roads designed for cars didn't really accelerate until after WW2. Before then, especially on the east coast, you had numerous small, walkable towns.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#287

Post by chillacy »

michaelt wrote: post #210
manigandham wrote: post #57

People seem to forget that "professional driver" is an actual job available for close to a century now if you really wanted a full-time position. Uber already works with FTE drivers at higher tiers like Lux and Black. All of the drivers I've asked over 1000's of rides have said they prefer the freedom and flexibility to work on their own time. Yes they want more money, but not at the cost of the flexibility. They alr…

All of the drivers I've asked over 1000's of rides I have had the same experience (with far fewer rides) but I'm sceptical about how reliable it is given the driver is incentivised to give me an enjoyable ride. Same as a waiter who hates his job will make more in tips by putting on a smile.

Try asking what they think of the quantity of Money they make and they won’t stop complaining that it isn’t what it used to be, or it is barely more than maintenance fees.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#288

Post by lagadu »

ShrinkingWild wrote: post #274
crashbunny wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, everyone should have the opportunity for education, but if no one can live on the pay of an uber driver so everyone skills up to get a better paying job, who will drive the ubers? I think everyone working fulltime should have a liveable wage.

No one would, uber would be forced to either pay higher or go out of business due to a lack of supply in drivers. As it stands though, supply of drivers way outweighs demand for drivers, so they get paid less. A "liveable wage", whatever that is, isn't a workable solution for a lot of businesses, simply because the actual value of their work may be lower than the liveable wage. Now instead of getting some money for f…

I argument that if a business can't provide a livable wage to its full time employees, then the business isn't viable.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#289

Post by moate »

geezerjay wrote: post #190
blub wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice big fat red herring. Health care as a discussion point in the contractor vs. employee topic is relevant for only one country on the planet. The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". For Uber drivers this is exactly the case, that's why this type of work is socially poisonous.

> The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". That's also a big fat red herring. The clients of a service are not employers of the contractor, and just because a contractor decides to invest some of his time to provide a service through ads posted on a job board that connects clients and service providers it does no…

You stop being a job board and start being a contractor for contractors when you begin to set terms for the contractors who appear on your list. If UBER wants to be a job board, then they need to allow the contractors to set their own prices, drive whatever cars they want, and generally be as exceptional or terrible as the individual drivers want to be. You don't hire a taxi, you "get an Uber". Everything about their branding is "giant private taxi service".

They're not a job board. They're an employer shirking their responsibilities to their employees.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#290

Post by chii »

lagadu wrote: post #288
ShrinkingWild wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one would, uber would be forced to either pay higher or go out of business due to a lack of supply in drivers. As it stands though, supply of drivers way outweighs demand for drivers, so they get paid less. A "liveable wage", whatever that is, isn't a workable solution for a lot of businesses, simply because the actual value of their work may be lower than the liveable wage. Now instead of getting some money for f…

I argument that if a business can't provide a livable wage to its full time employees, then the business isn't viable.

for these sorts of low-value jobs, something has to give - either employees don't get a livable wage and the business survives, or the business doesn't survive due to too high wage cost. The option where the business survives, but also pays a livable wage, can't exist. If it could, then a competitor could also out-compete them by just not paying a livable wage!
Post reply on HN