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PHP in 2019

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Re: PHP in 2019

#151

Post by dpcx »

lugg wrote: post #136
jbrooksuk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like. Laravel does this very well, not just by being a great framework but also in its ecosystem (Envoyer, Forge, Spark, Nova, Horizon, Socialite) and its documentation ( https://laravel.com/docs/master ).

If laravel is the best we have were fucked. Laravel is fine for prototyping but it breaks backwards compat constantly, probably due to the massive amounts of over abstraction, not to mention layer upon layer of IOC hell.

Can you share some of the BC breaking changes you've seen? I personally haven't seen any in quite a while, but I'm not using all parts of the framework.

Re: PHP in 2019

#152

Post by tacone »

owenwil wrote: post #2

I've actually been really impressed with Laravel after switching back to PHP for a few projects. Not only is the developer tooling experience some of the best I've experienced, it's just really the only framework I've ever experienced with a high quality ecosystem of tools—from Forge[1], which makes it dead-simple to deploy a Laravel app into production to things like Horizon, for managing Redis queues. A great examp…

To speed up Composer you can install Prestissimo [1] globally, it speeds things up considerably.

[1] https://github.com/hirak/prestissimo

Re: PHP in 2019

#153

Post by swalsh »

simias wrote: post #51

As far as I'm concerned the bridges have burned a long time ago and I definitely can't see myself giving PHP a second chance. That being said, if I'm wrong and PHP has really managed to become a decent language (or at least something that's not completely insane) its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like. Is performance that much of a big deal for most people? In a world where Rub…

I was pretty anti-PHP before I worked for a multi-billion dollar company that was built on top of it. It's not a beautiful language, but it offers a lot of side benefits in terms of dev-ops, and tooling, and frameworks. As a company, the language was not something that held us back. The company moved really fast, and PHP was a large part a big part of why. In my career over the past 14 years I've done web work using ruby, python, C#, javascript, and Java. but that ugly PHP site was the one that impressed me the most. People moved fast in it, our tooling never held us back, everything just worked. It was the most utilitarian environment i've worked in. The first time I touched PHP, it was a spaghetti disaster... but today, next to python It's my go to language. It gets the job done faster, and it's maintainability is just fine. It really doesn't matter if sometimes things just look odd.

Re: PHP in 2019

#154

Post by return1 »

cntainer wrote: post #64
EugeneOZ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All apps I saw, written in Ruby, were awfully slow. I don't know Ruby, maybe it's just me, but would be interesting to know examples of not slow Ruby apps.

Well, github, just to name one:). Also shopify, digital ocean, stripe. I also worked on a large ruby app that was faster than another large Java app. Keep is mind that all these platforms handle a great deal of requests at any given time, so we're not talking simple web apps. In my experience bad software design, bad DB design and bad developers are the major cause for performance issues, you rarely get to that level…

github is terribly slow... or maybe it's just me?

Re: PHP in 2019

#155

Post by jbverschoor »

It's funny how shitty decisions in tech always seems to win the masses, only because it's easier to get started with. And only 10 or 20 years later, a great amount of effort is put into patching all of this.

"Good tech" is created by people with a lot of knowledge of a specific domain. For them, it all makes sense, but the mental modal does not map to newcomers.

"Bad tech" is usually forgiving (messy syntax, accepting bad data etc), so people don't get stuck.

The solution is to have good tech with proper tooling and hints / error/configuration reporting.

apache, php, mongo, mysql, javascript.. They all have the exact same strengths, weaknesses, quirks, bad decisions, and mass adoption.

Re: PHP in 2019

#156

Post by brendt_gd »

simias wrote: post #51

As far as I'm concerned the bridges have burned a long time ago and I definitely can't see myself giving PHP a second chance. That being said, if I'm wrong and PHP has really managed to become a decent language (or at least something that's not completely insane) its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like. Is performance that much of a big deal for most people? In a world where Rub…

> its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like

This is one of my personal side projects, written in PHP and Laravel: https://github.com/brendt/aggregate.stitcher.io

Here's a list of all OSS package we maintain at work: https://github.com/spatie

Re: PHP in 2019

#157

Post by alunchbox »

lugg wrote: post #136
jbrooksuk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like. Laravel does this very well, not just by being a great framework but also in its ecosystem (Envoyer, Forge, Spark, Nova, Horizon, Socialite) and its documentation ( https://laravel.com/docs/master ).

If laravel is the best we have were fucked. Laravel is fine for prototyping but it breaks backwards compat constantly, probably due to the massive amounts of over abstraction, not to mention layer upon layer of IOC hell.

Can you explain the IOC hell? isn't most IOC / Dependency Injection patterns suppose to help the software maintainability ?

Re: PHP in 2019

#158

Post by brendt_gd »

pdimitar wrote: post #68
simias wrote: post #51

As far as I'm concerned the bridges have burned a long time ago and I definitely can't see myself giving PHP a second chance. That being said, if I'm wrong and PHP has really managed to become a decent language (or at least something that's not completely insane) its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like. Is performance that much of a big deal for most people? In a world where Rub…

Agreed, articles like these do absolutely nothing to address PHP's insane warts, some of which you mentioned. That's not helpful. Laravel can objectively be the best web app framework in the world and I still won't touch it, because of PHP. Predictability, minimum WTFs per minute, consistency, sane defaults -- these win over short-term convenience, every time.

For what it's worth, here's the source code of one of my personal side projects, written in PHP and Laravel: https://github.com/brendt/aggregate.stitcher.io

Re: PHP in 2019

#159

Post by bin0 »

justaaron wrote: post #83
return1 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is performance that much of a big deal for most people? For most people outside VC-funded startups, yes it is. It is also an environmental concern, imagine if 80% of the web was running on ruby.

https://crystal-lang.org

Your parent comment has a point about performance; I don't see why he is downvoted. Crystal is cool, but it is still immature in terms of ecosystem, the language could change, limited library support, and most importantly, not many great engineers. Particularly not outside of the valley.

Performance is a concern for many people, and this is somewhat overlooked because of the number of people here who work for companies where scaling is the primary concern. I think this is what he meant by people outside of VC-backed startups. I know of multiple companies that have had outrageous cloud-hosting bills and have had to hire fancy consultants to fix it.

Re: PHP in 2019

#160

Post by brendt_gd »

swalsh wrote: post #153
simias wrote: post #51

As far as I'm concerned the bridges have burned a long time ago and I definitely can't see myself giving PHP a second chance. That being said, if I'm wrong and PHP has really managed to become a decent language (or at least something that's not completely insane) its defenders should focus on actually showing what modern PHP code looks like. Is performance that much of a big deal for most people? In a world where Rub…

I was pretty anti-PHP before I worked for a multi-billion dollar company that was built on top of it. It's not a beautiful language, but it offers a lot of side benefits in terms of dev-ops, and tooling, and frameworks. As a company, the language was not something that held us back. The company moved really fast, and PHP was a large part a big part of why. In my career over the past 14 years I've done web work using…

I appreciate you sharing this. The goal of my post was not to convince people to "switch to PHP right now", but rather to tell them you can do pretty cool things with it, and that it's actually fun to work in.
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