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Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

nytimes.com

221–230 of 357 posts

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#221
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely people who are willing to work below minimum wage. It's actually quantifiable if you look at the workforce reduction after minimum wage hikes in locales.

>It's actually quantifiable if you look at the workforce reduction after minimum wage hikes in locales. People definitely are willing to work below minimum wage; that's exactly why we need minimum wage!

[deleted]

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#222
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't health insurance companies sell across state lines right now? Every state has unique requirements and Congress has never superseded them with a national health law.

If the Congress supersede every state law with national law, what’s the point of having states?

Emptying the bins and basic services - stripping things from the states that should be the same nationally would be a very good thing.

Yes I know the historical reasons the US is the way it is but it is the 21st century now not the 18th

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#223
post #182

People seem to forget that "professional driver" is an actual job available for close to a century now if you really wanted a full-time position. Uber already works with FTE drivers at higher tiers like Lux and Black. All of the drivers I've asked over 1000's of rides have said they prefer the freedom and flexibility to work on their own time. Yes they want more money, but not at the cost of the flexibility. They alr…

Being an employee doesn't imply fixed hours. It does imply having labour protections. And in the US it also implies having healthcare.

Only if your employer has 50 or more full time employees and you work more than 30 hours per week. Also, the employer doesn’t provide healthcare, they simply have to offer access to health insurance that covers 60% of your expected healthcare costs, but the employer is free to only pay for 30% or 50% or whatever share of the insurance premium, and leave rest for employee as long as sufficient numbers of employees sign up to prevent the non discrimination testing from failing.

In summary, I would say being an employee in the US most certainly does not imply you will have access to healthcare.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#224
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this is a comprehensive source. Here's a poll where 70% of the respondents supported Medicare for all[1]. [1] https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/412545-70-...

> I don't know if this is a comprehensive source. Here's a poll where 70% of the respondents supported Medicare for all The 70% don't understand that Medicare for all would kill off the private insurance industry. A lot of people like the idea of a single-payer system but they never assume they would be forced to give up their current private insurance. Tell people that their private insurance would go out of busines…

> A lot of people like the idea of a single-payer system but they never assume they would be forced to give up their current private insurance.

That's kind of the point of public healthcare. So that regular people would not be forced to have private insurance.

> private insurance would go out of business

I don't know. If my 30M country with public healthcare can have players offering many different policies of medical insurance, surely your 300M country could work it out too.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#225
post #178
post #23

It’s sad that the idea of people being able to get by and live a comfortable life without the benefits from a full time job is so far outside the Overton window that it’s not even mentioned in these conversations. That seems like such an obviously better outcome for everyone - what if we got rid of healthcare benefits and other types of favorable tax treatment that are tied to full time employment so that everyone is…

Nice big fat red herring. Health care as a discussion point in the contractor vs. employee topic is relevant for only one country on the planet. The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". For Uber drivers this is exactly the case, that's why this type of work is socially poisonous.

In Germany there is regulation about "Scheinselbständigkeit" meaning you are not really a contractor because you only have one customer for example. This is mostly a good thing but problematic with e.g. consulting where you have perhaps only one customer for some time. It was created to prevent exploitation but on the other scale limits high income people and consultancies, which was not the goal.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#226
post #79

I wonder if a simple change to Uber's app would fix all this -- let drivers set their own rates, and customers could pick from a number of drivers nearby based on how close they are, and what rate they charge. And/or let customers put out a bid for the rate they want to pay, then any driver can accept that bid and get the fare. That way drivers could be more legally considered contractors (they set their own rates),…

FYI, Sidecar did this in 2013 - you could set your own price, both as a rider and driver. Then, when you request a ride, it would be more like market-making, with you getting matched with the driver whose price is closest to your requested price, but under it. I personally tried using this many times - it was a poor experience for riders. I can imagine it wasn't very pleasant for drivers either. The theoretical ideal…

Honestly, even trying to achieve the "theoretical ideal price" based on supply and demand is already screwing up with the market. Regular people are not like HFT algorithms, with infinite pools of money available and ability to turn opportunity cost into profit. Having a stable and predictable price is important when deciding whether or not order a taxi/rideshare at all.

(At least, that's my experience. I wonder what your data has to say on it.)

As a customer, I'd be happiest if taxi companies charged a rate per-km, that's calculated off their consumables + car amortization + some reasonable profit margin. I think drivers may be happier too - recent personal experience with myTaxi shows this. They offered a promotion in which the passenger would pay a fixed cost known immediately in the app, but which calculations changed every day or so. Some days, it would become a good deal for the drivers; other days, the drivers would be working at a loss. I had a lot of problems getting a ride when using this promotion, and chatting with the drivers revealed that they instinctively ignore those requests, as from their POV the profits are unreliable.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#227
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice big fat red herring. Health care as a discussion point in the contractor vs. employee topic is relevant for only one country on the planet. The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". For Uber drivers this is exactly the case, that's why this type of work is socially poisonous.

In Germany there is regulation about "Scheinselbständigkeit" meaning you are not really a contractor because you only have one customer for example. This is mostly a good thing but problematic with e.g. consulting where you have perhaps only one customer for some time. It was created to prevent exploitation but on the other scale limits high income people and consultancies, which was not the goal.

Same thing in Netherland. There's constantly attempts to cut down on "schijnzelfstandigheid", which results in me having to jump through lots of hoops because I do long projects for big clients, on-site, as part of a team. But I make my own business decisions.

But when PostNL wants to fire all their mail deliverers and rehire them as independent contractors, they can. When I asked why, it turned out the main difference was that they are replaceable and I'm not: if they're unable to deliver mail at a certain day, they can get a friend to do it for them. When I'm ill, I can't send someone else to do my job.

It's a stupid rule. It's the exact reason why I have power over my work situation and they don't, yet somehow it's the reason why their situation is allowed and I constantly need to prove myself (though I haven't had any trouble so far).

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#228
post #205
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a stretch, drivers can leave at any time. They can even quit and look for other kinds of work. I don't disagree that it is playing out poorly, but that's because the driving market is a duopoly that was running at a VC funded loss for years to set a customer price that ultimately doesn't work out for the drivers. If instead fares were reasonable and the market competitive then a driver could switch to another…

You're confusing poorly paid contractors with highly paid and sought contractors. The latter can indeed leave at any time and be fine. Perhaps take a sabbatical at the sea side. The former will have their livelihood threatened if they make use of that flexibility, hence they have in reality no flexibility at all. They dance to the tune of Uber, Amazon and other bullies.

Surely they "dance to the tune" because in reality their work just isn't worth enough to allow them that freedom of choice? That's hardly Ubers fault and I don't see why Uber should have to suffer to make up for that.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#229
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this is a comprehensive source. Here's a poll where 70% of the respondents supported Medicare for all[1]. [1] https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/412545-70-...

> I don't know if this is a comprehensive source. Here's a poll where 70% of the respondents supported Medicare for all The 70% don't understand that Medicare for all would kill off the private insurance industry. A lot of people like the idea of a single-payer system but they never assume they would be forced to give up their current private insurance. Tell people that their private insurance would go out of busines…

The entire purpose of Medicare for All is replacing the need for private insurance. More people would have better coverage at a lower cost.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in Germany you are not insured publicly when you are self-employed.

This is not true. > Even if you are self-employed, you can also decide whether you wish to be insured via the statutory health insurance scheme or through a private fund. http://www.bamf.de/EN/Willkommen/BankenVersicherungen/Sozial...

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