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Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

nytimes.com

211–220 of 357 posts

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#211
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice big fat red herring. Health care as a discussion point in the contractor vs. employee topic is relevant for only one country on the planet. The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". For Uber drivers this is exactly the case, that's why this type of work is socially poisonous.

Also in Germany you are not insured publicly when you are self-employed.

This is not true.

> Even if you are self-employed, you can also decide whether you wish to be insured via the statutory health insurance scheme or through a private fund.

http://www.bamf.de/EN/Willkommen/BankenVersicherungen/Sozial...

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#212
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like common sense to me that an individual will be better at choosing a healthcare provider than their employer. I have picked insurance as an individual and as an employer, and that is 100% wrong. Any kind of insurance is difficult to shop for, because it's for something you'll only really need if you're unlucky; that means it's hard to tell whether the choice you make is a good one. Health insurance is w…

> Health insurance is worse, because it's an extremely complicated product. Get sick, go to hospital, insurer covers. There is a shortlist of things the insurer won't cover. You pay the insurer each month. Insurance isn't complicated. It is a complicated by bad regulation that mean insurers aren't trying to sell to individuals. > A company, on the other hand, gets to amortize the cost of figuring out the right option…

> Get sick, go to hospital, insurer covers. There is a shortlist of things the insurer won't cover. You pay the insurer each month.

> Insurance isn't complicated. It is a complicated by bad regulation that mean insurers aren't trying to sell to individuals.

I live in a country with public healthcare and even there, private medical insurance is ridiculously complicated. I'd wager insurance in general is in top 3 of the most complicated products available for regular people. Nowhere else I had to read and sign a TOS the size of a long novel. I imagine that for Americans, it's only worse.

And as for the book-length TOS, almost nothing in there seemed to me like regulatory requirements - it all read like the usual "try to exploit the customer as much as possible while making sure the customer can't exploit us" terms.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#213
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are “they”? And why should we trust them?

Well, it's a common talking point. Have you looked into it? It's an honest question, who has the onus of responsibility for research? OP or me?

The thing that feels bizarre whenever this comes up is the US willingness to pretend the many dozen cheaper systems that provide universal coverage doesn't exist.

The US spends more tax money on Medicare and Medicaid alone than what some countries spend per capita on providing universal healthcare..

Maybe copy one of the systems proven to work. They come in many flavours, many of which do include private insurers and healthcare providers that do just fine.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#214
post #178
post #23

It’s sad that the idea of people being able to get by and live a comfortable life without the benefits from a full time job is so far outside the Overton window that it’s not even mentioned in these conversations. That seems like such an obviously better outcome for everyone - what if we got rid of healthcare benefits and other types of favorable tax treatment that are tied to full time employment so that everyone is…

Nice big fat red herring. Health care as a discussion point in the contractor vs. employee topic is relevant for only one country on the planet. The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". For Uber drivers this is exactly the case, that's why this type of work is socially poisonous.

The article is about a US ruling and an American company. It seems relevant.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#215
post #64

Relying on corporations to help the lower middle class, is an outdated idea. Corporations are expressly designed to create value at the lowest possible cost, which necessarily means minimizing labor expenses. Relying on corporations to achieve universal healthcare and a living wage, is expressly going against what they were designed for. There is a far better way to help the lower middle class: through the government…

agreed. Ordoliberalism is really the only fungible path to ensuring most people in a society get a fair shake.

The social market economy has been very successful, but your use of “fungible” doesn’t seem to make sense, unless this is satire.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#216
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this is a comprehensive source. Here's a poll where 70% of the respondents supported Medicare for all[1]. [1] https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/412545-70-...

> I don't know if this is a comprehensive source. Here's a poll where 70% of the respondents supported Medicare for all The 70% don't understand that Medicare for all would kill off the private insurance industry. A lot of people like the idea of a single-payer system but they never assume they would be forced to give up their current private insurance. Tell people that their private insurance would go out of busines…

Funny how none of this is the case in pretty much any single payer system - as far as I know Norway used to be the only democratic one where private insurance was outright unavailable, and that was because there used to be no way to legally provide it.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds pretty evil to me. This is where you get the idea of 'corporations are people' to give more rights and them some to businesses to defend against your average person.

The legal basis of Citizens United was that individuals don’t lose rights by coming together as an organisation. So the NYT has free speech rights because its owners have free speech rights. And if a propaganda film like Fahrenheit 9/11 or Bowling for Columbine can be sold by a film studio a group of people can come together, whether as a for profit or not for profit corporation to produce their very own propaganda f…

Interesting.

I apologize if I'm rehashing some points covered a million times. What you described sounds prima facie reasonable, but then doesn't it follow that organizations should speak with the voices of people they're grouping together? So using your example, NYT should speak with the voices of its C-suite, or board, or investors - and not with the voices of its 4300 employees[0]! That is, the "voice" should not scale with the company size. Scaling like this sounds like cheating to me, given that companies are mostly made of people who have no say in anything.

--

[0] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/192894/number-of-employe...

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hardly qualifies as a source, it's just a page of "Myth vs. Reality" bullet points with no data backing it up, nor any references to sources. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the National Association of Insurance Commissioners is going to have more than a little conflict on interest here. Maybe what they're saying is true, but I'd need actual data if I wanted to believe them. What they're saying breach…

To be clear, the NAIC isn't an industry group - it's made up of insurance regulators. I suppose the argument could be made that they have a conflict of interest in that they'd benefit from increased regulation from an "empire-building" perspective. But I've never gotten the impression that that motivates their decisions in practice. (I'm a former actuary and still work in the insurance industry.) It's likely true tha…

> To be clear, the NAIC isn't an industry group - it's made up of insurance regulators. I suppose the argument could be made that they have a conflict of interest in that they'd benefit from increased regulation from an "empire-building" perspective.

Having 50 different markets to regulate sure seems like it'd result in a lot more demand fore insurance regulators than one market to regulate.

> It's likely true that health insurance premiums would be lower, on average, in an unregulated free market. It's also true that people with pre-existing conditions would be denied coverage or charged substantially higher premiums in an unregulated free market. The current approach to subsidizing coverage for those with pre-existing conditions is less efficient than a tax-and-spend approach would be (see, e.g., [0]), but it's more politically viable since it doesn't show up in government bugets.

Sure, there may be people who find the reasons for regulating the market to be more compelling enough to justify regulation. But that doesn't excuse the mental gymnastics required to convince oneself that this sort of regulation will somehow not only reduce costs but actually make things cheaper. This kind of thinking led us to having the poorest and unhealthiest patients subsidized by the rest of the nation - effectively a levying a flat tax on most insurance customers - and patting ourselves on the back as though this was a progressive change.

Also, your source is pretty dubious. I'm very skeptical of how analyzing the cost of helicopter ambulances specifically is supposed to be a good means of trying to back up the claim whether subsidy is less efficient than paying through taxes. Contrary to popular belief, most universal healthcare programs (e.g. most the ones in Western Europe, the UK being the notable exceptions) still leave the actual healthcare up to the private market.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#220
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a year, every other advertisement on TV would be for health insurance, like it is with car insurance now. It's strange to see someone say this like it's a good thing. Almost no one wants to "shop for the health insurance they need". They want to show up when they need care and receive it, and not have to think about it.

dunno, since the car insurance market was deregulated in italy (or better: regulated for transparent competition, which is different in some ways) my premium went from 1200/yr to 250/yr and I'm not receiving a worse service for it. it's all about in how the regulation is carried out. paperless data transfer between company, ban on exit and transfer fees, standardized risk assessment that's binding for all companies a…

id take a look at the small print if I where you based on what happens in the UK
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