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Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

nytimes.com

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Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#201

Post by ionised »

francisofascii wrote: post #118
baddox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand the connection to globalization or more rural communities. Urban cities, of course, generally offer the best walkability simply because of population density. In my experience in the United States, suburban communities and small towns are most literally unwalkable due to the design of the road network. In rural areas generally it's not feasible to walk simply because your place of work, groce…

Before globalization, rural communities had walkable towns, maybe just a few blocks, but enough stores to fulfill daily needs without the use of a car. Now all those communities have is big box stores several miles away.

That's not true about the United States. The entire US road network has been designed with cars in mind since at least the turn of the 20th century.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#202

Post by TeMPOraL »

geezerjay wrote: post #190
blub wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice big fat red herring. Health care as a discussion point in the contractor vs. employee topic is relevant for only one country on the planet. The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". For Uber drivers this is exactly the case, that's why this type of work is socially poisonous.

> The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". That's also a big fat red herring. The clients of a service are not employers of the contractor, and just because a contractor decides to invest some of his time to provide a service through ads posted on a job board that connects clients and service providers it does no…

And this is a really bad and misleading comparison.

Since when do job boards choose contractors for you? Since when job boards set the terms for the contractors? Since when they set prices for both you and contractors?

From the point of view of the customer, Uber looks like a taxi service, not a "taxi drivers phonebook in an app". It's done like this on purpose, but it should go both ways. You shouldn't get to pretend you're a company when it comes to benefits, but suddenly present yourself as network of "independent" contractors where it comes to drawbacks.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#203

Post by dalbasal »

I'm not american, so I could be missing some nuance, but in general uber, lyft and other gig-businesses have created a new type of labour. A court or a board is going to approach this by analogy. Is this more similar to "contractors," day labourers, piecemeal arrangements, full time employees..

These gigs don't really fall into a pre-existing categories, or shouldn't. The dynamic is totally different. The issues are different and the whole thing merits its own fraework at this point.

It's not difficult to define "gigs" by their features (just like the features used to test the "contractor" definition).

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#204

Post by fergie »

derekp7 wrote: post #79

I wonder if a simple change to Uber's app would fix all this -- let drivers set their own rates, and customers could pick from a number of drivers nearby based on how close they are, and what rate they charge. And/or let customers put out a bid for the rate they want to pay, then any driver can accept that bid and get the fare. That way drivers could be more legally considered contractors (they set their own rates),…

Yes. From the article ->

"given that drivers cannot set prices or market their personal services to potential customers. The driver’s entrepreneurial opportunities are almost “completely circumscribed by the company’s control of the price,” she said."

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#205

Post by blub »

ehnto wrote: post #193
blub wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice big fat red herring. Health care as a discussion point in the contractor vs. employee topic is relevant for only one country on the planet. The important benefits of having a job as opposed to gigging can be summarized as "the employer should not have complete power over the employee". For Uber drivers this is exactly the case, that's why this type of work is socially poisonous.

That is a stretch, drivers can leave at any time. They can even quit and look for other kinds of work. I don't disagree that it is playing out poorly, but that's because the driving market is a duopoly that was running at a VC funded loss for years to set a customer price that ultimately doesn't work out for the drivers. If instead fares were reasonable and the market competitive then a driver could switch to another…

You're confusing poorly paid contractors with highly paid and sought contractors.

The latter can indeed leave at any time and be fine. Perhaps take a sabbatical at the sea side.

The former will have their livelihood threatened if they make use of that flexibility, hence they have in reality no flexibility at all. They dance to the tune of Uber, Amazon and other bullies.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#206

Post by vidarh »

isostatic wrote: post #192
astrange wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance only gets cheaper the larger the company gets, because the risk pool can absorb more risk. Competition doesn't improve it. A giant problem with getting healthcare through insurance companies is that it's not actually insurance. Insurance should only be used to pay out in catastrophic cases; it's always cheaper to pay for something predictable yourself than to make an insurance claim. Of course, most people…

Don’t seem to have the problem in the UK. Everyone has healthcare. Those that can afford to (or their companies) top up with swanky perks, but it’s not needed for most. Total cost is $2800 per person per year. In the US it would cost $950b to provide that for everyone. The US currently spends $1077b on Medicare/Medicaid.

Just imagine what the US could have if it fixed its pricing issues and regulations and kept spending the insane amounts they do today...

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#207

Post by blub »

ehnto wrote: post #195
blub wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One man's price fixing is another's correction of socially harmful behavior. The free market will almost always devolve into worker exploitation unless there are rules.

It was a bad measure to try and solve the problem of Uber fixing it's own prices in order to create the current market dynamic. The cost of an uber ride AND the drivers wage are both subsidized by Ubers losses. If they didn't do that rates would go up necessarily. The Uber we know now simply can't exist forever, New York tried a bad way to illuminate the real price of the service so that the rest of the driving indus…

How many billions of stilts are needed to prop Uber up before it becomes obvious that it can't stand up at all and should be laid to rest?

It was a measure aimed at preventing Uber from externalizing their costs on society.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#208

Post by netcan »

dcosson wrote: post #23

It’s sad that the idea of people being able to get by and live a comfortable life without the benefits from a full time job is so far outside the Overton window that it’s not even mentioned in these conversations. That seems like such an obviously better outcome for everyone - what if we got rid of healthcare benefits and other types of favorable tax treatment that are tied to full time employment so that everyone is…

I don't think those are outside the overton window.

The healthcare point is and has been a major point of debate in US politics for years. Just because a article that tangentially related to it doesn't happen to mention it doesn't mean it can't be discussed.

Re: Uber Drivers Are Contractors, Not Employees, Labor Board Says

#210

Post by michaelt »

manigandham wrote: post #57

People seem to forget that "professional driver" is an actual job available for close to a century now if you really wanted a full-time position. Uber already works with FTE drivers at higher tiers like Lux and Black. All of the drivers I've asked over 1000's of rides have said they prefer the freedom and flexibility to work on their own time. Yes they want more money, but not at the cost of the flexibility. They alr…

  All of the drivers I've asked
  over 1000's of rides
I have had the same experience (with far fewer rides) but I'm sceptical about how reliable it is given the driver is incentivised to give me an enjoyable ride. Same as a waiter who hates his job will make more in tips by putting on a smile.
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