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A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

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Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#71

Post by silversconfused »

vfclists wrote: post #49
vajrabum wrote: post #13

As is so often the case with articles about Tesla the headline is completely misleading. No cars are getting bricked. Tesla fixes that problem by replacing the bad board but they won't replace the bad chip on the board and they won't sell the chip separately. Other manufacturers don't generally do that either.

> they won't replace the bad chip on the board There is no bad chip on the board. A full chip is not a bad chip, and there is no reason why the board should stop working on account of a full memory chip which contains a syslog that is not used for anything. Hacker News is riddled with shills and apologists for atrocious corporate behaviour.

You misunderstand both the functional properties of flash storage and telsa's blunder. Tesla's mistake was sending too much data to the chip, yes, but it exceeded the WRITE ENDURANCE, not the capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Memory_wear

(Incidentally, not a shill or shareholder, but rooting for tesla due the fact GM pushed for leaded gasoline and ford would rather litigate than fix dangerous vehicles. We're rooting for the underdog here hoping for global positive change.)

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#72

Post by slg »

lutorm wrote: post #60
slg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they not replace it out of warranty or simply don't pay for it out of warranty? There is a huge difference between those two options. If it is the former, I would imagine it is just a matter of time before a lawsuit. If it is the latter, then isn't this functionally the same as a particular model of car having a bad transmission or similarly critical ICE component that regularly fails much earlier than expected?

Powertrain components are required by EPA to have a 10yr/100k miles warranty, I thought? So it's not exactly the same situation because fundamental parts of the powertrain are covered by a longer warranty.

That doesn't appear to be true [1]. It seems like a majority of powertrain warranties are in the 4-6 year and 50k-70k mile range. Tesla's 4 year and 50k warranty on this part would therefore be on the low end, but it matches the powertrain warranties for Audi, BMW, Volvo, Mercedes, and several other manufacturers.

[1] - https://www.motor1.com/features/253277/comparing-new-vehicle...

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#73

Post by silversconfused »

village-idiot wrote: post #58
silversconfused wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, not full exactly. This is more like a rechargable battery that cannot handle being charged anymore. The old battery is not "empty", it's dead. This chip is not "full", it is dead. The lifetime physical endurance limits are exceeded, and functionality is lost.

Except Apple batteries die because of physics, Tesla has this issue because Tesla decided to: 1. Log something they never read back 2. Use a soldered down chip (they use a SD card in other locations) 3. Crash the media controls when the unused logs cannot be written 4. Disable certain car features, potentially immobilizing the vehicle because the media center is off. There are several ways that Tesla could have preve…

I read your argument, but I do not understand what you are taking exception to.

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#74

Post by [deleted] »

BluSyn wrote: post #7

This issue is best explained on Rich Rebuilds' recent video here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q&t=525 This has been a known issue for some time, and it's amazing Tesla hasn't fixed it yet. As explained in the video, the issue is simply the base linux OS has full syslog's still enabled, which over time burn own the eMMC chip used for storage. Currently Tesla just replaces the entire media unit when this happ…

[deleted]

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#75

Post by silversconfused »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #41
BluSyn wrote: post #7

This issue is best explained on Rich Rebuilds' recent video here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q&t=525 This has been a known issue for some time, and it's amazing Tesla hasn't fixed it yet. As explained in the video, the issue is simply the base linux OS has full syslog's still enabled, which over time burn own the eMMC chip used for storage. Currently Tesla just replaces the entire media unit when this happ…

> Currently Tesla just replaces the entire media unit when this happens, which is extremely expensive for them. In reality they only need to replace a tiny part instead of tossing entire boards. Am I the only one thinking about the recycling and cost implications of doing this?

Well, if you have some thoughts on it, I am curious what the other approach would look like. What are your thoughts?

I'm thinking they would have all the labor of taking it out, and all the labor of putting it in, but then much additional labor and repair time incurred by doing the component level repair instead of just grabbing another radio off the shelf. Recycling would be possible on the unit later and it could be installed as a refurb unit in another vehicle.

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#76

Post by zaroth »

wil421 wrote: post #48
zaroth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla won’t do this for free for out-of-warranty vehicles. Replacement cost of the entire board is unfortunately high at around $2,700. [1] - https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2700-to-fix-mcu-migh...

From your link: >I think we are on drivetrain #5 and it is now that one clunking intermittently, so maybe we take that one back in. We are on battery charger #2 and battery rebuild #3. We had most of the upgrades (wind noise on the door windows, etc). We had a left rear door handle start to go bad, took it to the shop and they fiddled with it and wanted to replace it, but afterwards no problems so we did not replace…

Yes, that is one anecdotal data point on a 2013 Model S. The 2012/2013 Model S drivetrain was notorious. Tesla warranted them for 8 years, and replaced them when they started to make noise. Here's an article with real statistical analysis saying 2/3rd were replaced by 60,000 miles. [1] This is back when Model S was basically a prototype.

Time will tell with the Model 3 how reliable it is. A major selling point is the reduced complexity of an EV. The Tesla drivetrain and battery is now widely considered the world's best and most reliable. Tesla has claimed the Model 3 drivetrain can be re-used on the semi and that it's tested to 1,000,000 miles [2]. Take that with a grain of salt, but it's a world different from a 2013 Model S.

[1] - https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101153_two-thirds-of-e...

[2] - https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/16/tesla-model-3-motor-gea...

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#77

Post by joezydeco »

solarkraft wrote: post #65
joezydeco wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Replacing a tiny part" is trivializing the work necessary to do this, in my opinion. eMMC flash is typically a ball-grid array part and it's soldered down hard to the motherboard of the processor. Almost every mobile device has the same setup and it's tricky and expensive to rework this chip. You need to carefully desolder it off the board, reball the part with the correct masking stencil, then reapply it without to…

Luckily Tesla isn't very space or money limited with this pretty ciritcal component. An SD card would make life easier for everyone, as the logs could be easily read out and the booting OS changed - yay for actually owning the device you paid for. But wait: That's not something Tesla wants.

eMMC is literally the equivalent of an SD card soldered down to the PCB. It’s more mechanically stable and also way faster.

In my experience, removable SD wouldn’t hold up to an application like this.

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#78

Post by pbreit »

joezydeco wrote: post #59
BluSyn wrote: post #7

This issue is best explained on Rich Rebuilds' recent video here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q&t=525 This has been a known issue for some time, and it's amazing Tesla hasn't fixed it yet. As explained in the video, the issue is simply the base linux OS has full syslog's still enabled, which over time burn own the eMMC chip used for storage. Currently Tesla just replaces the entire media unit when this happ…

"Replacing a tiny part" is trivializing the work necessary to do this, in my opinion. eMMC flash is typically a ball-grid array part and it's soldered down hard to the motherboard of the processor. Almost every mobile device has the same setup and it's tricky and expensive to rework this chip. You need to carefully desolder it off the board, reball the part with the correct masking stencil, then reapply it without to…

So it's not fixable with software update?

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#79

Post by [deleted] »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #43
stefan_ wrote: post #4

This is rather disingenuous. Of course Tesla doesn't replace the eMMC; that's a soldered on chip. No car manufacturer in the world does chip level electronics repairs. Instead you replace the entire board, and I have no doubt you can get this repair from Tesla. That's not to entirely excuse Tesla. If you have a modern operating system running from flash that needs to work for 20+ years as people expect from a car, it…

I'm not sure you understand the situation. This is the board the chip is on, which Tesla does not offer to replace: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0u78AylGb9fv8QHQnyr9IC3nA This is what Tesla will offer to replace: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0MVG8edJheaHYiEp7yWKkVePg Is that what you were imagining?

[deleted]

Re: A Single Component Can Brick Older Teslas

#80

Post by cheez »

wcunning wrote: post #15

The orphan car problem is a serious issue with non-Teslas, too, but I will personally stick to repairable vehicles. You know what you'll never, ever have trouble finding parts for? A Mustang or an F150. Corvettes. Carollas. All of the ubiquitous cars will have parts produced for a seriously long time.

Isn't this more of a network effect than something inherent to Teslas?
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