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The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

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Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#51

Post by Grue3 »

peteretep wrote: post #17
nullc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the US standing almost alone among developed nations and even the ACLU backing away from its policy of defending impolitic or hurtful speech we can probably expect this recent anomaly of free expression to be relatively short lived. I'm glad I got to live now and not some other time.

Could you briefly outline how you think the USA has benefitted from this freedom, in a way that other rich Western countries haven’t? I guess I’m specifically thinking of Australia, New Zealand, UK, Canada, as all have broadly similar legal systems and robust judiciaries / policing, but not the singular focus on free speech.

Cultural domination. There used to be a time when countries such as UK, France, Germany were incredibly influential in areas such as music and film. Now they're barely a blip on the radar. All the famous movies and music artists come from the US. I'd argue that stronger protections of free speech is a major advantage that led to this happening.

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#52

Post by DanBC »

exolymph wrote: post #19
peteretep wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you briefly outline how you think the USA has benefitted from this freedom, in a way that other rich Western countries haven’t? I guess I’m specifically thinking of Australia, New Zealand, UK, Canada, as all have broadly similar legal systems and robust judiciaries / policing, but not the singular focus on free speech.

How about a lot fewer people being jailed or otherwise punished by authorities for expressing their opinions? The UK has gotten positively absurd. You can be forced to talk to cops about un-PC tweets. Example: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/24/man-investigated... I'm against transphobia, but not being able to vocally dissent on a certain politically loaded topic... that shit is bad.

You don't have to talk to police.

If you're arrested it's probably a good idea to talk to police, with your lawyer (state funded or privately funded, you have the choice) at your side.

Was anyone arrested in this case?

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#53

Post by DanBC »

Grue3 wrote: post #51
peteretep wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you briefly outline how you think the USA has benefitted from this freedom, in a way that other rich Western countries haven’t? I guess I’m specifically thinking of Australia, New Zealand, UK, Canada, as all have broadly similar legal systems and robust judiciaries / policing, but not the singular focus on free speech.

Cultural domination. There used to be a time when countries such as UK, France, Germany were incredibly influential in areas such as music and film. Now they're barely a blip on the radar. All the famous movies and music artists come from the US. I'd argue that stronger protections of free speech is a major advantage that led to this happening.

I don't get it.

If we outside the US lack freedom of speech how does that help US media companies, who'll have to obey our laws to sell in our territories?

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#54

Post by conjectures »

foldr wrote: post #45
exolymph wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a lot fewer people being jailed or otherwise punished by authorities for expressing their opinions? The UK has gotten positively absurd. You can be forced to talk to cops about un-PC tweets. Example: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/24/man-investigated... I'm against transphobia, but not being able to vocally dissent on a certain politically loaded topic... that shit is bad.

> Citing 30 potentially offensive tweets, the PC singled out a limerick Mr Miller had retweeted which questioned whether transgender women are biological women. It included the lines: "Your breasts are made of silicone, your vagina goes nowhere." The most disturbing aspect of this is that there is no possible limerick including those lines! As a Brit who's lived in the USA and UK, I'd say that people outside the UK p…

> 'I would happily take this kind of police harassment over the kind that leads to unarmed people being shot.'

Yup, can confirm that not getting shot ranks quite highly in my list of policing preferences.

Also, I note the story points out that the book was first printed in the UK to avoid problems in the US...

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#55

Post by Kalium »

foldr wrote: post #49
Kalium wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, there's this notion of a chilling effect. Even if nothing ultimately comes of it, police harassment has the effect of convincing people to stay silent. This is not exactly a win, and definitely the kind of tool that the less kind sort of government has used to suppress ideas they dislike.

Yes, sure, but this particular example of police harassment isn’t especially disturbing. Do you not think that, for example, routinely shooting unarmed black men probably has a bit more of a “chilling effect” than this does? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-... As I said, I’d be wary of forming your opinion of what political discourse is like in the UK from reading news stories. How much ti…

You're right. Routinely shooting unarmed black men definitely has a great many unwanted effects, not the least of which are on the people who get shot.

We're fortunate, then, that this is not something anyone is suggesting should be done in the UK! Nor is the question at hand the probative value of whataboutism.

The question at hand is that of police in the UK turning up and asking you why you're making an arse of yourself online. Against the possibility that they could not do that.

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#56

Post by Kalium »

foldr wrote: post #50
Kalium wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent said that newspapers counterbalance the potential to use libel law to silence people. This suggests to me that publishers have de facto protections and rights that individuals do not. I would love to learn that I have been badly misinformed, and it is in no way true that infamously flexible UK libel law is not mostly defended against with a well-funded legal department.

You’ve certainly been misinformed if you think that there is some kind of special free speech protection in the UK that applies only to publishers. I don’t know of any country in the world where having money and resources doesn’t confer all kinds of advantages. It wouldn’t be difficult to come up with a list of fundamental rights which de facto aren’t available poor people in the USA. (Just think of all the people ja…

Thank you!

You've also made an excellent case for why explicit freedoms are valuable in addition to free speech.

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#57

Post by mgr86 »

As a Ginsberg related aside I often think his poem "I Am a Victim of Telephone" could be refreshed as a comment on modern life.

    [...]How are you dear can you come to Easthampton we're all here bathing in  the ocean we're all so lonely

    and I lie back on my palette contemplating $50 phone bill, broke, drowsy,

       anxious, my heart fearful of the fingers dialing, the deaths, the  singing of telephone bells

    ringing at dawn ringing all afternoon ringing up midnight ringing now

       forever.

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#58

Post by bloak »

lenticular wrote: post #2

It's pretty incredible how recent many of our seemingly inalienable rights (actual freedom of speech, de jure racial equality, right to representation, prohibition of the use of illegally obtained evidence, etc) have actually only been around a few decades, mostly thanks to the visionary Warren and Burger courts. They were considered dangerous activist judges by many in their time.

I would guess that to most of the world's population "prohibition of the use of illegally obtained evidence" is a crazy and stupid idea. Apart from the USA, which countries have a rule like that? (Perhaps Germany does?)

I'm not saying the rule didn't serve a useful purpose in some particular historical circumstances, but in general if you know that X is true then you should use that fact to avoid miscarriages of justice, and if crimes were committed in establishing the truth of X then you should hold a separate trial of the people responsible for those crimes (unless of course they are dead or for some other reason cannot be tried).

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#59

Post by jmpman »

asveikau wrote: post #18
jmpman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to support and be a member of NAMBLA - not our greatest achievement. Just happens to be another of Allen Ginsburg’s achievements.

Ginsberg's association with NAMBLA is indeed odd and unfortunate, as it taints a lot of his more respectable work. Here is what wikipedia quotes a friend of his as saying: > But, in fact, he was a pedophile. He did not belong to [NAMBLA] out of some mad, abstract conviction that its voice had to be heard. He meant it. I take this from what Allen said directly to me, not from some inference I made. He was exceptionall…

Except that we are talking about celebrating the publishing of Howl. Does Howl advocate child rape, or does he keep that out of his works like Michael Jackson doesn’t advocate relationships with children in Thriller and Woody Allen doesn’t advocate for marrying underage relatives in Manhattan.

I expect Allen Ginsburg’s Howl is about as depraved as the man.

Re: The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’

#60

Post by asveikau »

jmpman wrote: post #59
asveikau wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ginsberg's association with NAMBLA is indeed odd and unfortunate, as it taints a lot of his more respectable work. Here is what wikipedia quotes a friend of his as saying: > But, in fact, he was a pedophile. He did not belong to [NAMBLA] out of some mad, abstract conviction that its voice had to be heard. He meant it. I take this from what Allen said directly to me, not from some inference I made. He was exceptionall…

Except that we are talking about celebrating the publishing of Howl. Does Howl advocate child rape, or does he keep that out of his works like Michael Jackson doesn’t advocate relationships with children in Thriller and Woody Allen doesn’t advocate for marrying underage relatives in Manhattan. I expect Allen Ginsburg’s Howl is about as depraved as the man.

> Does Howl advocate child rape,

There is a lot in there of which I am not intimately familiar but I don't believe it does. It seems to me that contemporary claims of depravity of Howl centered around depiction of consensual homosexual acts, or drugs, or simple use of swearing, all of which are less shocking today than they were in the 50s. If you can find a specific example do tell.

> Woody Allen doesn’t advocate for marrying underage relatives in Manhattan

There is a creepy relationship with an underage girl (played by Mariel Hemingway) in that film. The amount of seeming autobiographical material in his work of the time make this hard to dismiss.

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