Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#421

Post by Moru » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:03 PM UTC

discreteevent wrote: post #335

smpetrey wrote: post #303

Anyone parading around like this is bad news has never worked in an assembly line or warehouse job. This might reduce the workforce overall long-term, but honestly this is hard back-breaking long-workday labor. Anything that improves the livelihood of the warehouse workers is a win in my book.

I worked two assembly line jobs. One feeding a robot with pre cut steel sections. The other wiring trucks. Both were non stop but just for 8 hour shifts. Both took physical energy and flexibility but were not back breaking (no more than the Amazon jobs anyway). I enjoyed them both and felt physically better at the end of the day than I do when I come home from a days coding. Everyone who worked with me needed the job…

An industrial job often pays a lot better than amazon ever would

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#422

Post by Animats » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:05 PM UTC

bschne wrote: post #381

Animats wrote: post #358

This is a minor improvement in packaging. It's not automated picking, which will be a big deal if Amazon cracks that. They've been trying and failing for years now. Amazon gave up on their robotic picking challenge after 2017. Here's the winner of the last challenge.[1] Way too slow and not reliable enough. Amazon has about 100,000 robots now. Most are Kiva machines, moving storage racks to human pickers. Here's what…

Here's how one of the biggest online electronics retailers in Switzerland handles storage / logistics for their smaller items [1]. As is the case with your amazon example, putting the items in the storage containers and picking them for shipping is still handled manually. I'm really curious as to how this compares to the moving shelf idea efficiency-wise and how a possible "solution" (if it is a problem that needs so…

That's AutoStore. It has a limited size range. It's most useful for electronic parts and medical supplies, which tend to fit in AutoStore bins.

The Kiva system Amazon uses has a bigger size range. It's also more rugged. The only fixed infrastructure in the storage area is a flat cement floor with bar code tags for navigation. Shelving units and robot are easily replaced.

AutoStore has a human-carrying vehicle which can run on the AutoStore rails. It's 4x the size of the regular robots. So when something gets stuck, there's a way to unjam the grid. Still, if something falls out of a bin, it's a much bigger headache in AutoStore than it is in Amazon/Kiva.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#423

Post by TrackerFF » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

o_p wrote: post #312

elamje wrote: post #301

Articles about Amazon are quick to mention the workplace conditions or robots automating something. Rarely do they mention that machines equal lower prices for the consumers 9 times out of 10. You can think what you want about Amazon but I’m not complaining that I have 100’s of options for my phone case, all for 1/5 the price of the previous days buying them at Verizon or Apple. Edit: would be awesome to hear about A…

>machines bring lower prices Do you have any source about this? If the costumer is already willing to pay a price there would be no point in lowering the price just because you automated the process. Or better said, theres no point in investing in machines if your profit margin is not going to get wider.

If you have number of competitors, then the ones that automate things can lower their prices due to decreased costs - they will gain a competitive edge, when all else is equal - as things tend to be in this industry (price and shipping are really the only variables, for the consumer)

But, on the other hand, if there are little to no competition, like a monopoly, then Amazon is obviously free to just keep their prices and increase their margins.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#424

Post by argonaut » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

lukewrites wrote: post #416

clarkmoody wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would kill the entire economy almost immediately. How many "paid positions" does Microsoft Excel replace every day? A single for loop could replace a thousand jobs doing manual computation. How many farm laborers are replaced by a single piece of modern equipment? You can't "strive for" automation, while at the same time essentially locking in labor costs by taxing that automation as human labor.

> How many "paid positions" does Microsoft Excel replace every day? I don't know, could you tell me? I don't think that we actually can point to people working in the position of calculator who are rendered unemployed by Excel version bumps. Arguing that we'd be putting Bob Cratchet and other clerks from the 1800's out of work rings of reductio ad absurdum. MS Excel seems to lack the one-to-one correlation between a…

Reductio ad absurdum is not a fallacy, it's a perfectly valid logical argument (that applies in this case).

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#425

Post by xkjkls » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

bobberkarl wrote: post #235

xkjkls wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those tax breaks have specific empployment figures associated with them.

Bu there's no penalty if this target are not met.

All of these situations are unique, but most of the time the benefits are awarded on a per job basis. So if the plan is to hire 2000 people, the reward will end up being divyied out depending on how many of the 2000 people are hired.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#426

Post by UnFleshedOne » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

logicprog wrote: post #385

UnFleshedOne wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with not using free time wisely is that there is usually supply and fragmentation issues -- not enough free time (or at least feels like it) and chunks that feel small enough that you have trouble fitting anything significant in before you have to drop everything and go make another buck. So the time is spent on useless things that are easy to pick up. For example, unless currently possessed by a Strange…

Okay that's a good point. Also I love the DF reference, DF is my all-time favorite game. My original comment somewhat lacked empathy, perhaps because I don't suffer from problems with free time fragmentation because I'm always possessed by a Strange Mood. I still think my point stands though. I meet a lot of people with what I know to be fairly large chunks of time that don't do anything with them anyway, not because…

You might have too high of an expectation what it means to lead a good life given your own drive. That itself is a part of "work or other productive endeavors define worth of people" culture I think. This is a good stance (consequentially) to have in society when unproductive members are a drag on everybody else.

But the main premise of UBI is that you just don't need economic output from all the people you have. So the only question remaining is how it would affect those people, the ones lacking the drive and ability to become useful. That is not the question of societal judgment -- if UBI ends up funding lots of mindless candy crashing it is only bad insofar as it affects the person. If they are satisfied, that's the end of the question.

I agree that a sudden transition for people who worked whole life and are finding themselves in effective retirement might be harsh, but the alternative here is sudden job loss and poverty, which is more immediately dire.

Might be a question to be resolved with data and studies I suppose. But my expectation (given that you don't need people to be economically productive anymore) is that benefit of having free time will be positive on balance, and the negative outcomes would be just another logistical challenge of education and motivation.

Consider also all the people in golden chains, who had ability and drive (which is arguably just another form of ability) to get good jobs, but who would rather apply those talents to something else.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#427

Post by skookumchuck » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

dzmien wrote: post #350

smpetrey wrote: post #303

Anyone parading around like this is bad news has never worked in an assembly line or warehouse job. This might reduce the workforce overall long-term, but honestly this is hard back-breaking long-workday labor. Anything that improves the livelihood of the warehouse workers is a win in my book.

I worked for Amazon in what was then a brand new warehouse for a few months in 2015. I worked 10 hour shifts, from 20:00 to 07:00 (the extra hour was for lunch and breaks). My job was picking orders. It seemed easy at first (and it was, but mentally, not so much). All I had to do was stand in one place while robots brought me pod after endless pod of products. There was nothing to it, and that was the problem. The po…

Automation and mechanization have always been about replacing dehumanizing, backbreaking, mindless toil. Maybe not intentionally, but that was the result.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#428

Post by CodeCube » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

canada_dry wrote: post #370

Animats wrote: post #358

This is a minor improvement in packaging. It's not automated picking, which will be a big deal if Amazon cracks that. They've been trying and failing for years now. Amazon gave up on their robotic picking challenge after 2017. Here's the winner of the last challenge.[1] Way too slow and not reliable enough. Amazon has about 100,000 robots now. Most are Kiva machines, moving storage racks to human pickers. Here's what…

Here's a vid of the actual packing machine noted in the article: https://youtu.be/0eqtqKDbV1Q It is pretty slick, and an obvious improvement to packing things in over-sized/generic boxes.

Yo that's crazy! custom sized packaging regardless of what's being packed? impressive

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#429

Post by petra » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

blairanderson wrote: post #168

sandworm101 wrote: post #35

I'm surprised that Amazon still uses boxes. They have the market power to insist manufacturers comply with amazon-specific packaging requirements. Why not just insist that all products be packaged in postal-compatible packaging? Then the amazon warehouse robot need only slap a label on the product and throw it in the shipping bin. Another answer would be to have products packaged in standard, or at lease square, boxe…

You mentioned two processes that have been in place with Amazon Vendors/Manufacturers for many years. 1. Amazon Direct Fulfillment (dropship): Order is shipped directly from the manufacturer to the customer. Amazon pays for the shipping label and contractually "own" the item once it leaves the MFR doors. Amazon incentivizes Manufacturers by paying the freight and loosening shipment deadlines. [1] 2. Ships In Own Cont…

A side question:

Blair, how do you Amazon's private label effort ? How will that end, would we buy mostly Amazon exclusive brands ?

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#430

Post by jodrellblank » Mon, May 13, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #52

cheeze wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the best "counterargument" here is that those were jobs which paid folks who then paid into their local economy. That goes away with robots and becomes more revenue. Lots of folks are in favor of a "automation tax." I'm not sure how I feel. Note I'm not arguing these points, but merely pointing them out.

>Lots of folks are in favor of a "automation tax." I'm not sure how I feel. I think it's really important the operators of the horse drawn coaches, put out of work by the train I get to work in the mornings, are properly compensated. How is that to be funded without an automation tax?

People who operate horse drawn coaches can learn to operate trains.

Once we automate everything the basic muscles of a human body can do without creative thought, that kind of comparable transition won't be possible and there will be 20-100 million Americans unemployed, hungry, and angry. You can have trite and dismissive mis-comparisons about the 1800s, or you can take it seriously and suggest some way society won't collapse in the ensuing riots.

That would include you suggesting what new class of jobs are on the near horizon which can absorb hundreds of millions of low-skill human workers, without needing them to be smarter, but also can't be done by machines.