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Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

reuters.com

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Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#251

Post by kermitismyhero »

dragonwriter wrote: post #240
kermitismyhero wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He would be sent to USA to respond of his alleged crimes in front of a public court of justice. Haha, no. He'd be sent to a secret FISA Star Chamber. There's no way he'd be tried in public. And if the Swedish authorities wanted Assange to answer for alleged crimes in Sweden, all they had to do was publicly declare that they wouldn't extradite Assange to the US. That was the sole requirement he had made of the Swedis…

> He'd be sent to a secret FISA Star Chamber. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review only are empowered to handle foreign intelligence surveillance warrant process. Criminal charges are handled in US District Courts, and are Constitutionally guaranteed to be public.

>Criminal charges are handled in US District Courts, and are Constitutionally guaranteed to be public.

If you think that the US DOJ hasn't spent a million man-hours to find some way to keep everything as secret as possible, you haven't been paying attention to their actions thus far. They will find some way to kangaroo-court him out of the public eye. They do it with foreign nationals all the time.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#252

Post by JamesBarney »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #231
blub wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the actual number of extradition requests for alleged sleep-sex-offenders could actually be 0, you didn't even check in detail? This is quite anti-climatic. Alternative outcome: the brits spare 16m £, which they can then invest in fighting real crime. They arrest the alleged offender when flying or at any routine control, since he's not a danger to anyone. Anyone except those unmasked by the leaks.

I'm not sure why you're trying to hand-wave this away by using language like "alleged sleep-sex-offenders" and "having sex with their sleeping sex partner without a condom". If this falls under the definition of rape in Sweden then the extradition request is for just that - a charge of rape. This is a very serious crime. Whether you agree with their definition or not doesn't really affect the legality or validity of…

Here's the longest most explicit story on the incident I could find.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange...

It definitely paints a picture of him being a dirtbag but I don't know if this would even be illegal in the U.S. or what people would conventionally describe as rape.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#253

Post by ivarb »

SXX wrote: post #246
ivarb wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The diplomatic cables were released November 28 2010. The international arrest warrant November 18 2010. Before that other documents had been released, during the course of almost a year. So, the way I see it there is nothing really special about the timeline here. It is interesting that a lot of people seem to think that he should not be held responsible (or at least investigated) for the crimes he might have commit…

Wikileaks is not just Assange. Obviously there far more people were working in background to verify everything they can and make sure their data is legit before they show it to the public. Do you really think there was way for them to keep upcoming release like actually secret from US government?

Sure. They probably had an idea of what was going on. Don't really see why that is important though. What I was replying to stated "The charge and extradition request was made shortly after the release of the US diplomatic cables." which is incorrect. There is not anything suspicious about the timeline as I see it, the arrest warrant was issued after Assange left Sweden during an open investigation, which he was quite aware of. The only thing that would have been strange is if an arrest warrant hadn't been issued.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#254

Post by alkonaut »

sjwright wrote: post #238
_Microft wrote: post #158

Would the people who argue that the described situation was not rape please remember that it actually is under swedish law and the situation in your own jurisdiction is irrelevant here?

If Swedish law used the word arson to describe the situation, would you accept that term and call Assange an arsonist? As a commentator, I am not beholden to novel terminology used elsewhere, let alone in a country that doesn’t even use English as their primary national language.

I’d hesitate to call anyone a rapist until proven guilty. But I have nothing against the broader use of the term in general.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#255

Post by icebraining »

donarb wrote: post #237
rayiner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Penetration of a sleeping person without consent is definitely illegal in the US, even if you had consensual sex the night before.

Not in Ohio. There is a marital exception for certain acts that would constitute rape anywhere else, like drugging your spouse and then raping them. https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/editorials/2019/04/21/st...

While that's appalling, I'm pretty sure he wasn't married to any of the two women.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#256

Post by JamesBarney »

rayiner wrote: post #249
blub wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the actual number of extradition requests for alleged sleep-sex-offenders could actually be 0, you didn't even check in detail? This is quite anti-climatic. Alternative outcome: the brits spare 16m £, which they can then invest in fighting real crime. They arrest the alleged offender when flying or at any routine control, since he's not a danger to anyone. Anyone except those unmasked by the leaks.

Having sex with someone who is sleeping is “real rape” and it’s “real crime.” It’s not even a close call.

The only description I found was during several acts of consensual intercourse she fell half asleep and she thinks that he might have ejaculated without a condom. I don't think she's was saying the sex was non-consensual just that he if he did ejaculate inside of her that was without her consent. If this is incorrect I'd like to know because in my mind I'd labeled him as "dirtbag but not rapist". But happy to label him a rapist if he is one.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#257

Post by kenneth »

rayiner wrote: post #250
kenneth wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue had more to do with not using a condom (with the explicit non-consent of the two women) than with the sex (for which he mostly had consent)

What the fuck is “mostly having consent” for sex?

In the case of Miss A, he had reluctant consent. In the case of Miss W, he had consent for sex, but not explicit consent to initiate sex while sleeping.

The thing that both of these women reportedly felt violated by was his disregard for their explicit request to use a condom.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#258

Post by icebraining »

thatoneuser wrote: post #156
duchenne wrote: post #26

Assange is accused of unlawful coercion and "lesser-degree rape" (mindre grov våldtäkt). In the first case, the complainant willingly had an intercourse with him. But after sex, she realized that the condom had a hole. She claims that he made it. In the second case, the complainant also willingly had an intercourse with Assange, they slept naked together. The next day in the morning, he penetrated her without a condo…

Why isn't it rape/sexual batter for a woman to have sex without bc then? Or at least to have sex without bc if she made the guy think she had it? How did men's reproductive rights get passed over while women's are comprehensive?

> Or at least to have sex without bc if she made the guy think she had it?

Isn't it?

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#259

Post by dragonwriter »

kermitismyhero wrote: post #251
dragonwriter wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He'd be sent to a secret FISA Star Chamber. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review only are empowered to handle foreign intelligence surveillance warrant process. Criminal charges are handled in US District Courts, and are Constitutionally guaranteed to be public.

>Criminal charges are handled in US District Courts, and are Constitutionally guaranteed to be public. If you think that the US DOJ hasn't spent a million man-hours to find some way to keep everything as secret as possible, you haven't been paying attention to their actions thus far. They will find some way to kangaroo-court him out of the public eye. They do it with foreign nationals all the time.

> If you think that the US DOJ hasn't spent a million man-hours to find some way to keep everything as secret as possible, you haven't been paying attention to their actions thus far.

I'm pretty sure that they have neither spent that many man-hours nor would get much value from spending anywhere close to that, because the parameters of “as secret as possible” are, while always subject to further litigation around the borders, not so mysterious or difficult to assess that it would take that much work to get a solid idea both where the boundaries were and what the relative risks of various ways of probing the areas where there is remaining uncertainty.

> They will find some way to kangaroo-court him out of the public eye. They do it with foreign nationals all the time.

Not with foreign nationals subjected to formal criminal extradition they don't. Foreign, allegedly unawful, combatants detained by the US military or transferred to their custody by America’s cobelligerents in the context of military conflict, all completely outside of the civilian criminal justice system, sure; foreign parties where the government covertly intervenes with overseas regimes to detain them without involving the US criminal justice system to, that too. But none of those are applicable here.

Re: Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extradition

#260

Post by alkonaut »

I think the case is too exposed to just shrug and say “well we could reopen it now, but nah we’re not going to bother”. After 9 of 10 years during some of which the defendant has already been de-facto under house arrest, it doesn’t seem likely that prosecutors would have reopened a case that wasn’t as visible as this one.

I don’t believe for a second that this is related to US pressure in any way, I believe the prosecutors simply want to show that they do things by the book and want to show that they are capable of prosecuting “international” cases like this one. Assange isn’t going to be in any deep legal trouble over this. It’s a formality I’d say. That doesn’t make it pointless though. Formality is important.

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