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Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#231

Post by max76 »

Kadin wrote: post #136
EugeneOZ wrote: post #107

Surprised to find so many modern Luddites in comments. History lessons says that new professions will appear.

History also suggests that having a significant number of unemployed people who suddenly can't afford basic necessities because their jobs / way of life suddenly disappeared, is destabilizing as hell. Very few people are actually suggesting that automation is bad, per se; the concern many people have is that the rate of change needs to be managed such that significant numbers of people aren't left behind. People can…

> Better to keep some technologically-unnecessary jobs around than to live in a society constantly teetering on the brink of a violent populist uprising.

Is there any evidence that the United States is "teetering on the bring of a violent populist uprising."? Your entire comment is hyperbolic.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#232

Post by Bartweiss »

asdfman123 wrote: post #62
CodeMage wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's good news, just not for the people you're thinking of. Think about people who work in Amazon warehouses despite those conditions. Why do they do that? Because the alternatives are worse. This just removes these jobs and leaves them to face those alternatives.

I think HN's tune would be quite different if someone came up with a technology that eliminated half of all programming jobs. Not quite so many people would be saying, "This is great! I for one look forward to technological advancement." I do think the future should involve more automation, I just think we should be -- I dunno, a little less gleeful about it and think about the people it's impacting.

I pretty frequently see people answer these things with studies showing automation isn't (yet) causing structural unemployment.

And, ok, it's good to have those studies, but they're not a final word on the topic. We also know that people who are displaced into other industries mid-career generally see permanent setbacks in wages, are frequently forced to move, and take long-term hits to their emotional wellbeing comparable to other major life crises.

If automation is 'just' accelerating the sort of turnover that's always existed, that still implies we should be deeply concerned and start finding better ways to support the people it affects.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#233

Post by jcranberry »

cadence- wrote: post #68
sphinxpy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the same boat with my unease of the situation. Entitlements are already putting the US in crippling debt, however, I am worried that automation will destroy so many jobs that we need a universal basic income. Which I am personally not advocating. I am unsure of how I feel about it.

Universal basic income seems to be the only viable way forward. So far I have not heard any other good solution to the societal problems automation is causing. The other alternative would be to slow the progress, but that’s even worse. We need to let people learn new skills, and universal basic income makes that possible. There will be obviously freeloaders, which is the main issue with this approach. This is extreme…

The other solution I've heard is shorter work weeks.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#234

Post by EugeneOZ »

nepeckman wrote: post #203
EugeneOZ wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And all those middle age workers will, what? They will be fired, yes. This cruel world, where people should care about competitiveness of their skills. It starts right after the school.

Let's set empathy aside for a moment (which you seem to lack). This just isn't a practical approach. What do you think those people will do after being fired? Kindly die so you don't have to deal with them anymore? No, they will riot. And when that fails, they will turn to theft and crime in order to feed themselves and their family. We will pay one way or another for these economic hardships, in property damage, inc…

> What do you think those people will do after being fired?

> they will turn to theft and crime in order to feed themselves and their family

If they prefer this rather than learning new skills/professions - nothing can help them. "Give us the money for free or we will take your money by force to feed our families" - times of naive pirates are gone.

> (which you seem to lack)

0 empathy to communists/socialists and other people who just want to feed lazy blackmailers you described.

Young people starting their way in life (first job), old people who can't work anymore - only groups of people I'm ready to give some money to support them. I have enough empathy for them.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#235

Post by bobberkarl »

xkjkls wrote: post #221
CriticalCathed wrote: post #216

This is going to be a shock to all of those people who were willing to give tax incentives for Amazon to build distribution warehouses in their city in exchange for "jobs." Though, this is only the beginning. A few thousand jobs now, the majority of them later.

Most of those tax breaks have specific empployment figures associated with them.

Bu there's no penalty if this target are not met.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#236

Post by cheeze »

aey wrote: post #26
cheeze wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the best "counterargument" here is that those were jobs which paid folks who then paid into their local economy. That goes away with robots and becomes more revenue. Lots of folks are in favor of a "automation tax." I'm not sure how I feel. Note I'm not arguing these points, but merely pointing them out.

It doesn’t become more revenue. It maybe a cost reduction which in turn may increase profits, or reduce consumer prices. Either is a good thing. Amazon has a long track record of aggressively reinvesting its profits.

Sorry, that's a much better characterization of it.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#237

Post by SolaceQuantum »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #141
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So going solely by that figure, as long as the gain in efficiency from automating a job is > 42% it's a net positive for the economy? No, because 1$ to a poor person is actually 1.12$ returned to the economy. It gets even bigger when you go into 1$ to education. > And that's even _if_ you assume 100% of the savings goes directly into the company owner's pockets and isn't simply being re-invested somewhere else. Wel…

> No, because 1$ to a poor person is actually 1.12$ returned to the economy. Okay, so >60% then, assuming the average worker at an Amazon warehouse meets your definition of "poor". Still a totally achievable figure. > Even if you give money to wealthy people We're not talking about _giving_ money to anyone here, we're talking about automation. Automation means efficiency gains for _Amazon_ (the corporation) not Bezos…

A >60% efficiency gain is not small at scale, and part of the reason why automation is succeeding but not exactly in all the spaces we expect. Even the article covers that jobs are being lost, but not many jobs as one would intuitively believe.

Furthermore, someone who is out of work as a result of automation will also be a loss in the broader economy (as they will need services, the government loses income tax where applicable). The math I assume gets very complicated very quickly. But claiming "and from bezos' pocket, where?" is a reductionist statement that can be met with an equally reductionist "nowhere because we know rich people don't invest as much in the economy as they take".

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#238

Post by smileysteve »

sandworm101 wrote: post #35

I'm surprised that Amazon still uses boxes. They have the market power to insist manufacturers comply with amazon-specific packaging requirements. Why not just insist that all products be packaged in postal-compatible packaging? Then the amazon warehouse robot need only slap a label on the product and throw it in the shipping bin. Another answer would be to have products packaged in standard, or at lease square, boxe…

> Why not just insist that all products be packaged in postal-compatible packaging?

Because Amazon saves significant money with fewer boxes.

Here are the savings

- Transportation Volume (no matter the vendor)

- Potential trips from warehouse to customer

- Package damage or loss

- Cost of packaging (they can charge their supply chain less OR make more margin if they can decrease this)

Even if Amazon uses their own delivery service.

Importantly, one of the major promotions they offer is delaying your 2 day guaranteed shipping until all items are ready to ship.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#240

Post by imtringued »

asdfman123 wrote: post #62
CodeMage wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's good news, just not for the people you're thinking of. Think about people who work in Amazon warehouses despite those conditions. Why do they do that? Because the alternatives are worse. This just removes these jobs and leaves them to face those alternatives.

I think HN's tune would be quite different if someone came up with a technology that eliminated half of all programming jobs. Not quite so many people would be saying, "This is great! I for one look forward to technological advancement." I do think the future should involve more automation, I just think we should be -- I dunno, a little less gleeful about it and think about the people it's impacting.

Working with better programming languages and frameworks is great!
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