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Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#181

Post by michaelt »

mft_ wrote: post #112
CodeMage wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, and with good reasons. Before you wrote your comment, did you stop to think why people work inside Amazon's warehouses if the working conditions are so oppressive? It's because the alternatives are still worse. And now they'll lose those jobs and have to face those alternatives. Of course those of us who perceive this as an injustice will complain. The complaint is not directed at Amazon only, it's at the…

Can I just clarify: you're saying that Amazon, despite offering jobs which are (apparently) less bad than other alternatives, are participating in systemic oppression of the working class? In your view, what should Amazon do to not systemically oppress the working class?

Some people believe, much like there's a minimum wage and below that you're not allowed to hire someone (even if both employer and employee consent and it's market rate) and minimum safety standards (again, irrespective of mutual consent and market conditions) there should be minimum levels of working conditions.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#182

Post by mft_ »

blub wrote: post #160
mft_ wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I just clarify: you're saying that Amazon, despite offering jobs which are (apparently) less bad than other alternatives, are participating in systemic oppression of the working class? In your view, what should Amazon do to not systemically oppress the working class?

Pay a living wage and offer humane working conditions. This is not rocket science...

I guess (economics aside) that a wage increase is a simple concept to grasp.

But I'm interested how Amazon's working conditions are "inhumane"? I've read about 'picking' jobs which require lifting, bend, and walking for many miles per shift, but this doesn't seem more inhumane than many other jobs requiring manual labour? And I've read about complaints about the rate of workplace accidents (this was highlighted in the UK recently) but it's hard to tease out more details here.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#183

Post by Gene_Parmesan »

asdfman123 wrote: post #114
amedvednikov wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI. Then we can be gleeful about more automation.

People need to feel useful to others. Right now, in the US, we fulfill that need through work. Work is an integral part of our culture. If you make a whole swath of the population feel redundant, especially practical, no-nonsense people who are used to having work define who they are, they are not going to adjust well. They are quite different than college-educated hippies who would rather get more education and go s…

> Maybe you'd go off to college, but then come back when it gets hard because it's totally okay if you never amount to anything.

I would say, it's totally okay for any person, in rural US or urban, to not go to college if they don't need it. I am a huge proponent of higher ed, including making it freely available to all, but this idea that you have to go to college to "amount to something" is damaging.

Additionally, your use of "amount to something" is showing your own bias towards feeling that white-collar work defines success in life. Not everyone feels like this -- as you've noted, but it's not limited to "college-educated hippies." I know many, many people who work solely to put food on the table and find their fulfillment elsewhere. This could be via volunteering, art (not only hippie art), mentoring others, or pursuing dream jobs in their free time. Imagine if the safety net of UBI existed -- how many more people would feel confident taking the risk to open the restaurant they've always dreamed of opening, or art gallery, or other cottage-industry?

Furthermore, It's not about preventing people from working if they want to. It's about ending minimum-wage slavery -- making sure people don't need to work two or three minimum wage jobs just so their children have food to eat and a roof over their heads.

> I would probably just spend my life on the internet and playing games while feeling guilty.

You say this, but I kind of doubt it. That guilt would spur you to do something of value.

> Others would escape through drugs.

There is currently an epidemic of drug use in the US due to all the people trying to escape from the misery of their $7.25/hour existences.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#184

Post by ekianjo »

CodeMage wrote: post #46
irrational wrote: post #5

This sounds like good news. I've read lots of negative stories about the working conditions in Amazon warehouses. It would be great if all the jobs could be automated.

Sure, it's good news, just not for the people you're thinking of. Think about people who work in Amazon warehouses despite those conditions. Why do they do that? Because the alternatives are worse. This just removes these jobs and leaves them to face those alternatives.

> Think about people who work in Amazon warehouses despite those conditions.

I thought everyone wanted these jobs to disappear because Amazon was like a sweatshop or something? Now that Amazon is getting rid of such tedious jobs people are complaining? You can't have it both ways.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#185

Post by theflyinghorse »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #172
nepeckman wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all those middle age workers will, what? Just be retrained? Who's paying for that? What happens when the retraining fails (as it so often does) because you can't magically turn a truck driver into a software engineer? I don't think any of the comments here are anti-progress. But we do need a social and political plan to handle the automation of a large number of low skill jobs. Failure to plan for this future wil…

> And all those middle age workers will, what? They will be fired, yes. This cruel world, where people should care about competitiveness of their skills. It starts right after the school.

> It starts right after the school.

I'd argue that the competition start before the child is even born in the modern world. Wealth of one's family, their connections play a major role in the success of the child (admission scandals come to mind)

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#186

Post by ekianjo »

CodeMage wrote: post #121
xxs wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"eliminated half of all programming jobs" Tools to improve speed of development have existed for ages, twice the speed = twice less developers in a blunt way. (that includes even programming languages) Personally I'd consider it an improvement - if I job can be automated, it should be.

> twice the speed = twice less developers in a blunt way Except that's not how that works. Increasing the productivity of a job does not eliminate it. A job is eliminated when it's no longer necessary. Unless you live in a parallel dimension, we're both in the world where there's more and more software development being done every day. Twice the speed results in twice the output, not half the developers.

> Increasing the productivity of a job does not eliminate it.

Of course it does. Not on an individual level, but if suddenly one employee can do three times more work, there is no need to recruit 2 more full time jobs to address the increasing needs. So on the whole, productivity will destroy jobs, but the good news is that the additional returns will create other jobs in other areas.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#187

Post by sokoloff »

driverdan wrote: post #154
gridlockd wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A UBI in the salary range of an Amazon warehouse worker would be on the order of 1/3rd GDP.

UBI supporters always seem to forget that the money has to come from somewhere.

I'm a UBI supporter in theory. It's the practical math that always leaves me hung up. Even $600/mo/adult citizen is a seemingly prohibitive amount of money (works out to approximately the entire amount of all individual income tax payments, or about half of total receipts, including FICA).

And of course, $600/mo/adult is an extremely meager existence.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#188

Post by sokoloff »

wjmao88 wrote: post #137
gridlockd wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A UBI in the salary range of an Amazon warehouse worker would be on the order of 1/3rd GDP.

Having one third of the value created by everyone pooled together to distribute to everyone sounds completely fine to me. I'd say the society as a whole plays a role that is on average greater than 1/3 on your success.

Would that be on top of the over 1/3rd that I already pay to the US Treasury?

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#189

Post by mft_ »

michaelt wrote: post #181
mft_ wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I just clarify: you're saying that Amazon, despite offering jobs which are (apparently) less bad than other alternatives, are participating in systemic oppression of the working class? In your view, what should Amazon do to not systemically oppress the working class?

Some people believe, much like there's a minimum wage and below that you're not allowed to hire someone (even if both employer and employee consent and it's market rate) and minimum safety standards (again, irrespective of mutual consent and market conditions) there should be minimum levels of working conditions.

This what interests me (genuinely - I'm not just trolling here!)

If an employer has need for employees to perform a specific type of manual physical work --be it 'picking' for Amazon, or building houses, or working in agriculture, or whatever-- and they pay market rates, and adhere to health-and-safety laws... what other reasonable working conditions must be met?

For example, it's difficult to build houses without exposure to inclement weather.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#190

Post by [deleted] »

asdfman123 wrote: post #114
amedvednikov wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI. Then we can be gleeful about more automation.

People need to feel useful to others. Right now, in the US, we fulfill that need through work. Work is an integral part of our culture. If you make a whole swath of the population feel redundant, especially practical, no-nonsense people who are used to having work define who they are, they are not going to adjust well. They are quite different than college-educated hippies who would rather get more education and go s…

[deleted]
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