Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#151

Post by jordache » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #84

jordache wrote: post #47

andrew yang 2020. no brainer. Surprised why more candidates are not discussing the automation gorilla in the room. there are not enough low-skilled, difficult to automate jobs that can sustain the population.

Candidates are discussing immigration, tariffs and outsourcing because that's actually affecting jobs in the US and people who work on the factory lines know it. Automation is a scary specter off in the distance but it's not as actively harmful to people's livelihoods.

ppl are stupid. reactionary strategy is way less effective than proactive.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#152

Post by EugeneOZ » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

Kadin wrote: post #136

EugeneOZ wrote: post #107

Surprised to find so many modern Luddites in comments. History lessons says that new professions will appear.

History also suggests that having a significant number of unemployed people who suddenly can't afford basic necessities because their jobs / way of life suddenly disappeared, is destabilizing as hell. Very few people are actually suggesting that automation is bad, per se; the concern many people have is that the rate of change needs to be managed such that significant numbers of people aren't left behind. People can…

> one night of rioting by the now-unemployed proletariat

Lol, and this is response to "Luddites". Good luck with riots :)

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#153

Post by logicprog » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

sundaeofshock wrote: post #96

Ajedi32 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And from there?

He will horde most of it. Occasionally he will spend on lobbying efforts, purchase insane luxury items (ie yachts), or vanity projects. Sometimes, he will splurge on a business that employee a few people. When he is feeling particularly generous, he may contribute to some project that makes home look good while putting his name on something (ie new opera house).

Where does the money for the yachet go?

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#154

Post by driverdan » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #79

amedvednikov wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI. Then we can be gleeful about more automation.

A UBI in the salary range of an Amazon warehouse worker would be on the order of 1/3rd GDP.

UBI supporters always seem to forget that the money has to come from somewhere.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#155

Post by hef19898 » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

PorterDuff wrote: post #94

sandworm101 wrote: post #35

I'm surprised that Amazon still uses boxes. They have the market power to insist manufacturers comply with amazon-specific packaging requirements. Why not just insist that all products be packaged in postal-compatible packaging? Then the amazon warehouse robot need only slap a label on the product and throw it in the shipping bin. Another answer would be to have products packaged in standard, or at lease square, boxe…

Smart dudes have wrestled over those problems for years. I think the strongest case for dropshipping would be new cars. The dealerships have presented a problem for people for years, but they are politically well connected. It's a lot easier for a manufacturer to send a boxcar of toilet paper to a warehouse (Amazon or otherwise) than to mail the case to you. Lacking Amazon or Safeway, they'd probably just recreate a…

My impression is that Amazon is kind of biased in that regard. There are valid reasons to keep the warehouse logistics in-house. And they did invest a lot of energy into that. It just bugs me that Dropshopping was never really pushed while the logistical powers to be ever so slightly pushed against it.

Nothing wrong with that, but it could very well be the first clue that Amazon is behaving more like an incumbent than a disrupter as described in the Innovator's Dilemma.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#156

Post by wjmao88 » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #114

amedvednikov wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI. Then we can be gleeful about more automation.

People need to feel useful to others. Right now, in the US, we fulfill that need through work. Work is an integral part of our culture. If you make a whole swath of the population feel redundant, especially practical, no-nonsense people who are used to having work define who they are, they are not going to adjust well. They are quite different than college-educated hippies who would rather get more education and go s…

> practical, no-nonsense people who are used to having work define who they are

These people can still let work define themselves, with less competition and more responsibilities which would make them more happy.

> Would you care about high school if it's totally okay to not do anything? Maybe you'd go off to college, but then come back when it gets hard because it's totally okay if you never amount to anything.

I think this is totally okay. Every time there is a topic on college there is the debate of whether college should be job training or overall growth of individuals. This solves that problem altogether and all the way to high schools. Also, when those people enjoyed enough of their free time and want to go back and learn, they will be able to do so without pressure. We cram 12-16 years of school on kids because most of them can't afford to not to. We already see middle class and wealthy children taking gap years to explore life, this just let everyone do that.

> I would probably just spend my life on the internet and playing games while feeling guilty.

Do you spend all your time on the internet and play games after work? If you don't, why would you when you don't have to work?

> Others would escape through drugs.

I'd say more people escape through drugs due to pressure in life than the lack of pressure.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#157

Post by hardwaresofton » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

Is it me or does it feel like the door to economic advancement is closing faster and faster every day?

In this thread people are suggesting UBI, but I can't see that as anything more than an economic uncertainty (trying to predict how market forces will respond and adapt), which will be exploited by the oligarchy that is already exploiting the systems we have now (as you might expect anyone to). To think we could successfully create a good UBI system despite the fact that we can't get other very important pieces of governance right in many parts of the world seems ludicrous.

People are suggesting that new jobs will be created as jobs are automated but there's no proof of that except history and this time seems different -- humanity has never had the tools it has now, the step change in ability/utility over the last few decades is insane. In a world with high levels of automation, where does advancement come from? Up until now, it's mostly been differentiation through some form of work. Do creative endeavors become the new work/only way to differentiate if we spend most of our time on leisure? But then what if someone automates that away too?

It seems like once we evolve past work the economic system and the big & small players in it will freeze in place. If you had enough capital to be on the right side of the split then you get to stay on that side, but if you didn't you seem all but condemned. Dystopia seems inevitable. I'm not saying that I think work is good in and of itself but it's disconcerting to happens when that particular music stops -- it's run so much of the world up until now.

Another thought -- the good 'ol revolution/riot path is going to get closed down in a few decades I think. Weaponization of autonomous machinery will happen, and the efficiency of oppression will reach untold heights. Security will be a highly sought skill and those most able to pay for it (with resources/money/whatever) will be able to purchase it.

Sure hope I'm wrong about all/most of this.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#158

Post by sneak » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #105

oliwarner wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly one way of looking at it but I would worry if your answer to "those workers are being abused!" is always "make them redundant via automation". Amazon's warehouse workers were abused because Amazon , not because those jobs should have been automated. They could have had more break time. They could have had lower targets. Pay them more. Paternity leave. So many things you can do to improve working cond…

How does Amazon stack up against other warehousing jobs in those areas?

In such a way that people choose to work for Amazon instead of those other employers, so Amazon’s jobs must be fairly attractive to them.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#159

Post by swalsh » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #12

Is there a field of study associated with job creation? The answer is not actually obvious. There's a lot of research into efficiency, which is almost synonymous with job destruction. Edit: Thanks for the answers below. I was thinking of academic areas of research. For example, Macroeconomics, Labor Relations, Governance, Management Theory etc.

I think hand-made "artisan" products is going to continue to be a large part of the future of "Jobs". Automation can mass produce high quality items that aren't unqiue, and 3D printers can make unique products that aren't high quality... but humans right now are the best at making high quality unique items.

But I do think things like UBI are still necessary, hand made items are always going to be in-demand, but unless you're selling only to the 1%, it's hard to charge enough.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#160

Post by blub » Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

mft_ wrote: post #112

CodeMage wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, and with good reasons. Before you wrote your comment, did you stop to think why people work inside Amazon's warehouses if the working conditions are so oppressive? It's because the alternatives are still worse. And now they'll lose those jobs and have to face those alternatives. Of course those of us who perceive this as an injustice will complain. The complaint is not directed at Amazon only, it's at the…

Can I just clarify: you're saying that Amazon, despite offering jobs which are (apparently) less bad than other alternatives, are participating in systemic oppression of the working class? In your view, what should Amazon do to not systemically oppress the working class?

Pay a living wage and offer humane working conditions.

This is not rocket science...