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Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

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Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like the US doesn't already have a number of remote areas like Hanford, Oak Ridge, Idaho Falls, the Savannah River Site, Rocky Flats, etc. that are already set up (and somewhat contaminated already) for handling this sort of material and process. In reality it's a political nightmare, not a pollution one.

Hanford and Rocky Flats are two of the most polluted places on Earth. Hanford has polluted the Columbia River, a tragedy in itself. Nuclear is like the insolent child who refuses to clean up his room. There isn't any cleanup, really. The waste keeps piling up (usually in something that looks like a swimming pool). It must be attended to by humans for decades or centuries. And the uranium cycle leaves its dirty underw…

Thus reprocessing - if Hanford's government contractors could get over the hump and get the vitrification plant online, it'd be a lot easier to clean up the waste that's interred in the solid dump and tank farms. And if we didn't have state governors screaming about "No atoms and radiation in my state!" and not allowing passage of waste through their state in properly designed containment and transfer casks, we'd be able to get that waste to a facility where it can be made safer.

The radiation plume under Hanford is not as terrible as certain sources make it to be, the same with the contamination of the river. The area around the reservation itself has led to a recovered and strong population of many endangered indigenous animals in the area as well.

Regarding Rocky Flats, again, not as terrible as many make it out to be. Once you factor in living at high elevation there's not a huge increase in overall exposure.

An important consideration that comes into this is that most of these were weapons production facilities (dealing with purifying and handling some of the nastiest material around).

The waste from properly designed and operated power reactors is a much cleaner and much easier to contain process. Condemning an entire avenue of clean energy (most of the fuel needs for a century+ which have already been extracted and refined) because the work done on the technology in the 40's-60's (when we were still figuring out how awful some of the waste is), is not conducive to progress.

Source: Field engineering on projects at Hanford, Rocky Flats, and Yucca Mountain

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#172
post #90

Spent nuclear fuel, sometimes called waste, is actually a resource that next generation reactors will be able to tap - both for energy and uncommon element feedstock. Just like shale used to be "garbage" until the tech to make it useful was developed, spent fuel will be seen as waste until we can make it useful. Letting this very manageable amount of waste sit in repositories until we get our shit together is utterly…

> Spent nuclear fuel, sometimes called waste, is actually a resource that next generation reactors will be able to tap That's just hope. How convenient not having to deal with the mess! To me, it sounds like a religion. The same argument could be applied to rising CO2 levels. Just let future generations figure it out. What could go wrong?

> That's just hope. How convenient not having to deal with the mess! To me, it sounds like a religion.

Er, no this is demonstrably false. France recycles >98% of its spent nuclear fuel in breeder reactors. This isn't fantasy, this is already existing technology. It's not as profitable at the moment which is why few countries recycle waste but it is absolutely something that could be done in the future.

It's not like rising CO2 levels, and this comparison is intellectually dishonest in the extreme. Rising CO2 in the atmosphere levels impact the environment, spent nuclear fuel buried underground does not. The possibility of contamination is either nullified by storing waste in areas already contaminated by nuclear testing, or by burying it miles underground.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#173
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about multiplying it by thousands? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7151231_Estimates_o... https://www.greenpeace.org/archive-international/Global/inte...

First of all, we were talking about Fukushima, do you have any data about that ? Anyway, about the first link: Wow, 40000 cancers attribuable in Europe by 2065 to Chernobyl, the worst nuclear accident in history. That sounds bad, until you finish reading the abstract, where the authors evaluate that impact as "several hundred million cancer cases are expected from other causes ... unlikely that the cancer burden from…

> First of all, we were talking about Fukushima, do you have any data about that ?

How can I? Who would provide that? Especially in Japan where politics and ignorance go hand in hand with avoidance to even talk about the whole thing or any disastrous event. The piles of white bags full of earth next to the roads in the region are the only silent reminders that something really bad happened there.

> Anyway, about the first link: Wow, 40000 cancers attribuable in Europe by 2065 to Chernobyl, the worst nuclear accident in history. That sounds bad, until you finish reading the abstract, where the authors evaluate that impact as "several hundred million cancer cases are expected from other causes

I don't understand what you want to say by that. Do you mean it's okay to ignore the fallout of this disaster because people die of cancer either way? I mean seriously. There are radioactively contaminated wild animals running around in Bavaria's forests today and the accident happened almost 2000km away. Can you imagine how Europe would look like if one of those old and leaking reactors in France goes sideways?

There is nothing to compare to besides a nuclear war.

I can understand it's a nice thing with this radioactive accidents. There is usually a small amount of people who die in a spectacular and direct way while the rest dies a silent deaths over a long period of time. It's very handy if you want to push a technology which is too expensive and outdated and the only other argument out there is the death count of accidents. But this is not the case. Renewables are coming while even gas is a better solution then building even one nuclear reactor and most of the people, Governments and energy providers got the message already. The people never wanted a nuclear waste dump or reactor in the neighborhood in the first place. The only people left are those directly profiting from the immense subsidies (nuclear lobby) and those who fell for the recent artificial hype created by this lobby.

It's time to face the facts: it's dead Jim.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#174

Spent nuclear fuel, sometimes called waste, is actually a resource that next generation reactors will be able to tap - both for energy and uncommon element feedstock. Just like shale used to be "garbage" until the tech to make it useful was developed, spent fuel will be seen as waste until we can make it useful. Letting this very manageable amount of waste sit in repositories until we get our shit together is utterly…

> Please don't ruin our valuable trash.

How valuable could it possibly be? I challenge you to calculate the net present value on all of that nuclear waste.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#175
post #150

Spent nuclear fuel, sometimes called waste, is actually a resource that next generation reactors will be able to tap - both for energy and uncommon element feedstock. Just like shale used to be "garbage" until the tech to make it useful was developed, spent fuel will be seen as waste until we can make it useful. Letting this very manageable amount of waste sit in repositories until we get our shit together is utterly…

And no one ever talks about how we’ll handle solar waste. Has it changed and is no longer a problem going forward? Last I looked into it a few years back it was shaping up to be a very serious and toxic problem. They were very difficult to recycle, and full of lead, cadmium, and other nasty things. Something needs to be done with them but everyone was pretending they’re completely clean and safe.

I get 27.300 results for "solar waste" on google. 88.000.000 for "solar waste management". Literally "no one ever"...

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't get the problem, like at all. Dig a 5-6km deep shaft(we already have the technology for that depth, no issues), put the waste at the bottom. Keep drilling shafts until all waste is burried. That's far below the depth of any water sources, and unless you bury it near a tectonic fault, it's not making its way back through geological processes for eons. Like, can someone explain to me why we're not already…

The deepest mine in the world is 4km deep. There are only a dozen or so more than 2km deep. Going down 5-6km may be possible, but definitely not with "no issues". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deepest_mines

You don't need to drill tunnels for people to walk in - just a borehole wide enough to fit a cylinder filled with nuclear waste.

In fact, this very idea was already researched and test holes drilled - but of course was cancelled due to public opposition, even though we could get rid of our nuclear waste almost overnight using this method. Typical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_borehole_disposal

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What nightmare? Reprocessing is a net cleanup compared with letting the waste sit. I have some nuclear engineering background and honestly I don’t know what you’re referring to.

Reprocessing isn't clean. It creates its own waste which is worse than the spent fuel you started out with. Reprocessing plants (like every part of the uranium cycle) are dangerous places to work and live near.

It creates a lot less waste, which is the point. Lots of fuel (waste) in, little bit of waste out.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#178
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France's power is cheap by European standard [0]. Because France heavily subsidized its nuclear infrastructure. They also have a big problem right now because most plants are old and have to be decomissioned, and building new plants is not economical.[0] Energy from nuclear power plants is pretty expensive sans subsidies, not just in France. Just as an example of the live cycle costs: An old plant in my country is…

Ah, yes, decommissioning, that dirty little word no one in the nuclear industry likes to talk about. Decommissioning can take decades and cost billions, usually passed on the ratepayers. These costs are never mentioned when the industry discusses its economics. I'm also getting kind of tired of the "solar pollutes, too" argument. Yes, solar pollutes. So does making PC processors. But neither of those activities creat…

There is one aspect in which non-radioactive heavy metals are worse: since they are stable elements they must be stored away and guarded forever, not just for a limited number of years.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not politics that is preventing nuclear. It's cost. Renewable is simply a cheaper, easier form of energy. And it gets cheaper every single day.

In your analysis, have you included the required base-load generation systems required when renewables aren't generating (night time, no wind) or the required storage systems (which actually don't exist) to time shift the energy supply?

I would add that as renewables get cheaper, there will also come a point at which that will also lower the price of fossil fuels. At present, demand for fossil fuels exceeds supply. If/when renewables cover that demand, the demand portion of the price will fall.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#180
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the legitimate safety concerns over nuclear waste. It's not about an explosive nuclear device. It's about the risk of contamination, particularly of water supplies, and the psychological impact that radiation has (rational or not). There are both security concerns (preventing intentional misuse) and safety concerns (transportation accidents, leaky permanent storage). If it were harmless, we wouldn't e…

But in that respect it’s not very different from the hundreds of hazardous chemicals that are transported around the country every day.

I agree, and objectively there are pollutants that are far worse than nuclear waste, both in actual harm potential and in ubiquity, but there's a strong fear factor about radiation that drives all the NIMBYism. It's rational to be concerned, but not rational to be concerned to the level people are. Alas, irrational people still vote. Maybe they can be distracted with a train full of vaccines.
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