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Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#121

Post by CodeMage »

xxs wrote: post #109
asdfman123 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think HN's tune would be quite different if someone came up with a technology that eliminated half of all programming jobs. Not quite so many people would be saying, "This is great! I for one look forward to technological advancement." I do think the future should involve more automation, I just think we should be -- I dunno, a little less gleeful about it and think about the people it's impacting.

"eliminated half of all programming jobs" Tools to improve speed of development have existed for ages, twice the speed = twice less developers in a blunt way. (that includes even programming languages) Personally I'd consider it an improvement - if I job can be automated, it should be.

> twice the speed = twice less developers in a blunt way

Except that's not how that works. Increasing the productivity of a job does not eliminate it. A job is eliminated when it's no longer necessary.

Unless you live in a parallel dimension, we're both in the world where there's more and more software development being done every day. Twice the speed results in twice the output, not half the developers.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#122

Post by SolaceQuantum »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #95
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And from there to fund already rich parties to continue to enforce control in a way that washes Bezos' hands clean of any wrongdoing. Outsourcing the task of maintaining inequality, per se. (Billionares funding millionares springs to mind). Or, stated with less emotional rhetoric: Funding 1$ to the wealthy returns 0.7$ to the economy. So, from 'there' nothing, because Bezos' pocket is keeping it.

> Funding 1$ to the wealthy returns 0.7$ to the economy. So going solely by that figure, as long as the gain in efficiency from automating a job is > 42% it's a net positive for the economy? And that's even _if_ you assume 100% of the savings goes directly into the company owner's pockets and isn't simply being re-invested somewhere else.

> So going solely by that figure, as long as the gain in efficiency from automating a job is > 42% it's a net positive for the economy?

No, because 1$ to a poor person is actually 1.12$ returned to the economy. It gets even bigger when you go into 1$ to education.

>And that's even _if_ you assume 100% of the savings goes directly into the company owner's pockets and isn't simply being re-invested somewhere else.

Well that's the thing. Even if you give money to wealthy people they're not going to invest more than a poor person will with it. A person in poverty has immediate needs to spend the money on where a wealthy person does not.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#123

Post by wlesieutre »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #45
egypturnash wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bezos’ pockets.

And from there?

Launched in to space for Bezos's Scrooge McDuck gold pool on his moon colony.

But don't worry, nobody needs to get paid for this. The rockets will be built by robots, and the robots will be built by more robots.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#124

Post by RhodesianHunter »

sphinxpy wrote: post #48
avgDev wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that as we move forward and keep automating this will become a major issue in our society. I'm not sure if I support automation tax but it makes me uneasy. I work at a manufacturing company. We are slowly chipping away at data entry, manual processes. It only improves efficiency now, but eventually we will need less people.

I am in the same boat with my unease of the situation. Entitlements are already putting the US in crippling debt, however, I am worried that automation will destroy so many jobs that we need a universal basic income. Which I am personally not advocating. I am unsure of how I feel about it.

The only entitlements that have any real budgetary impact are Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid.

The former will only result in crippling debt due to mismanagement of the funds.

The latter could (should?) be replaced with universal healthcare.

The rest of the budget is mostly defense spending and debt servicing.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#125

Post by lm28469 »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #107

Surprised to find so many modern Luddites in comments. History lessons says that new professions will appear.

But that's the whole point though. We're creating bs jobs to replace the bs jobs we automated. What's our goal as a society ? Shouldn't we think about working less, better spreading wealth, figuring out a plan so people don't have to work multiple jobs to barely survive ?

Right now almost everywhere in the world we're heading for longer work week and increased retirement age. So much for "automation will deliver us from work" we've heard over and over again for the last 60 years.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#126

Post by glomerulus »

asdfman123 wrote: post #74
hannasanarion wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a platitude that is said often, but there is no evidence to support it. There is no law of the universe that says whenever a job gets automated, a new type of work pops out of the aether to employ displaced people. It is wishful thinking at best.

Well, if you look at history it keeps happening. Imagine if you said in 1900 that almost all farm jobs would be eliminated in 100 years. The future would be almost unimaginable, but we've turned out okay. However I think the problem is we're at a point where things are churning so rapidly that many are being left behind. Your 50-year-old truck driver is not in a position to learn a new skill every 5-10 years to stay…

Well, gee, when you put it like that, it just makes so much sense!

With that in mind, I hope it happens to you!

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#127

Post by fastball »

mft_ wrote: post #112
CodeMage wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, and with good reasons. Before you wrote your comment, did you stop to think why people work inside Amazon's warehouses if the working conditions are so oppressive? It's because the alternatives are still worse. And now they'll lose those jobs and have to face those alternatives. Of course those of us who perceive this as an injustice will complain. The complaint is not directed at Amazon only, it's at the…

Can I just clarify: you're saying that Amazon, despite offering jobs which are (apparently) less bad than other alternatives, are participating in systemic oppression of the working class? In your view, what should Amazon do to not systemically oppress the working class?

Give people Perfect Working Conditions™ (presumably).

Or maybe have robots and then pay working class people to do nothing?

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#128

Post by petra »

sandworm101 wrote: post #35

I'm surprised that Amazon still uses boxes. They have the market power to insist manufacturers comply with amazon-specific packaging requirements. Why not just insist that all products be packaged in postal-compatible packaging? Then the amazon warehouse robot need only slap a label on the product and throw it in the shipping bin. Another answer would be to have products packaged in standard, or at lease square, boxe…

So there are 2 options:

1. Amazon changes the market(a huge challenge). it's now easier for manufacturers and other retailers to do e-commerce.

2. Amazon becomes the best in the world in packaging, and keeps the skill to itself. It's now harder to compete with Amazon.

Naturally Amazon prefers #2.

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#129

Post by fastball »

drewmol wrote: post #103
cheeze wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the best "counterargument" here is that those were jobs which paid folks who then paid into their local economy. That goes away with robots and becomes more revenue. Lots of folks are in favor of a "automation tax." I'm not sure how I feel. Note I'm not arguing these points, but merely pointing them out.

Another negative impact of losing those jobs is that those folks paid income tax. When the operational cost of these tasks are transferred from payroll to capital expense the effective federal tax rate of what was payroll is lost (a ballpark 1.7% - 8.7%[0]) and the added automation cost is used as a deduction on a ballpark -1% - 1%[1] corporate income tax. [0] https://www.fool.com/retirement/2016/10/31/heres-what-the…

Where exactly do you think those increased corporate profits are going?

Re: Amazon rolls out machines that pack orders and replace jobs

#130

Post by fastball »

sidcool wrote: post #89
fastball wrote: post #2

Something tells me people will find a way to complain about this. And that those people will be the same people that think Amazon's warehouse policies are oppressive.

It has become fashionable to paint everything in black and white. The solution to workplace abuse is removal of jobs? Really? Automation is not bad inherently, but it's socioeconomic impact has to be ascertained.

You're right, automation is not inherently bad. In fact, automation is inherently good.

And yes, the solution to jobs that humans don't want is to eliminate those jobs with automation. Working in a warehouse packing boxes doesn't suck because it's Amazon and they are a big bad employer -- it sucks because it's working in a warehouse packing boxes.

We don't need to "ascertain it's[sic] socioeconomic impact" before we pursue the elimination of such things.

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