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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#301

Post by newen »

snazz wrote: post #8
shiburizu wrote: post #2

I find it very important to analyze cases like these when CEOs sound off about how you shouldn't need a degree to work in the industry. These code camps have no credibility.

I’ve seen many super-talented self-taught programmers who never received any formal education, and I’ve seen college graduates who can’t get FizzBuzz working. Of course the code camps are scams, but a degree isn’t much better for many people who have very little internal motivation to learn.

It's like you've internalized bad logic or something. Just because X is a subset of Y, where X are bad programmers, and Y are people with degrees, does not come close to implying that X = Y.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#302

Post by skybrian »

Kalium wrote: post #243
TeMPOraL wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if the bootcamp is going to spend 3 months teaching you how to make a website using the industry-standard tools and frameworks, you're going to know absolutely shit at the end. Consider a typical front-end developer setup - with IDE/smart editor, linters, transpilers, packers, package managers, project generators. These are all useful tools, but to be even a marginally competent developers, you have to know wha…

I encountered a particularly egregious example of this recently. I was running a group of recent(-ish) hires through a training course recently. Part of it is penetrating-testing a dockerized application on their machines. One of the things the application is vulnerable to is various forms of form tampering attacks. One of my students just stared helplessly at this. They were absolutely stuck. I had no idea why. I ca…

Having been in the situation, all I can say is that sometimes you have to expect "shocking" gaps when working with inexperienced people at not let it throw you. It's part of being a teacher. You have to remain positive. If they're quick to learn it when you teach it to them, it's fine. This is learning on the job and it's expected.

That happened to me at Google for someone who didn't come in as a software engineer. I didn't handle it well and it's one of the things I most regret.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#303

Post by akhilcacharya »

mises wrote: post #37
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

The idea came about when media pitched it as a solution to blue-collar jobs disappearing. This was particularly the case when some asked what would happen to coal miners when environmental regulations were enacted: they were told to learn to code. It was supposed to be a panacea for job loss.

This feels like revisionist history to me. There have been more job losses in the print and publishing industry and there are more workers in the solar installation industry - the only reason why the coal miners get extra sympathy is because it’s politically expedient.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#304

Post by boilerupnc »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #276
hatchnyc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience, and I'll add I have noticed there is a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software is. I remember beginning my career what I think used to be a quite common experience of being quite a bit overwhelmed by how much I had to learn, very aware that I didn't even know what I didn't know and this definitely motivated me. This awareness is completely absent from 1…

This. When I started my career all I had to learn to make enterprise grade apps was Visual Basic. True story, there were even big ERP companies built entirely on VB. Today? Modern HTML, CSS, and JS apps with backends in is more off putting than Win32 or GTK+ was. Yes I’m aware of the differences in capability and no I’m not complaining. I’m just saying it was easier back then.

Agreed. I'd go a step further and say that "easier" coupled with in-your-face accessibility/visibility (e.g. ubiquity of Macros in Microsoft Tools) made for a powerful combo and provided tangible illustrations to programmers and non-programmers alike of the power of software - especially with simple tactical solutions. This exposure can be inspirational to all involved. At least for me, it was enough to switch careers entirely [1]. My first practical creation of any code in a working context was in response to the inability (lack of skills) of my employer to fix a problematic software data input form - resulting in inefficiency and degradation in my co-workers quality of (work) life.

Many of the comments here have focused around the skills and personality traits of coders. I agree with most: problem solving, some level of aptitude and curiosity are all important parts of the basic mix for success. Most of the discussion around motivation either has circled around economic benefits or some self-driven desire to learn.

Again, while not invalid motivators - I think a BIG one that's not been discussed is the general allure to the raw transformational power enabled by software (automation). With only a few lines of code, disruption can be created to make things easier, make things faster, make things safer, make things better - with immediacy and impact. In my case, I used it to disrupt inefficiencies and accelerate solving problems. As a factory process engineer, that kinda power was way too intoxicating to look away from. But manufacturing wasn't quite ready to embrace software quite yet - so I made the career jump. For me, I wish coding camps or other channels would have been accessible in small remote towns in the Midwestern part of the U.S. back then, it would have accelerated my confidence and given me a channel to seek a career. Instead the luck of the dotcom boom opened doors in job fairs where I had plenty to offer in the technical realm but little to show in terms of code at the time. Nevertheless, 15+ years and going in software has been a great ride thus far and one that I couldn't have predicted.

[1] https://medium.com/@boilerupnc/ten-lines-9a8403984bbf?source...

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#305

Post by gingabriska »

kazinator wrote: post #201
gingabriska wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've no idea why coding should be anymore special than basic reading/writing skills. Code is a way to express solution to the problem which a computer can execute. If you can learn any language, you can learn coding too. Sure, not everyone can understand intricacies of the algorithm design and data structure gotchas but some of that can come as experience and curiousity. Question worth asking is that, does everyone n…

Not every human who can speak a language is a great speaker, storyteller or writer. Writing a program is like a very detailed story that has to hang together. There can't be any loose ends in the plot or surprising twists that make no logical sense. More than requiring language, programming requires thought. The faculty of language doesn't confirm thought.

> Writing a program is like a very detailed story that has to hang together. There can't be any loose ends in the plot or surprising twists that make no logical sense.

Those lose ends are called bugs and they often appear in the code. Coding a collaborative task in most companies, even if you've obvious holes in your plot, someone will see and fix them if they are not obvious to you.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#306

Post by wolco »

whack wrote: post #181
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Many of the things you said sound pretty representative of new CS graduates as well. It'll take them at least a year, and a lot of mentoring, to learn the best practices and get their hands dirty. I get the impression the problem at your company isn't with bootcamp-vs-CS-graduates. I suspect the problem is that your company is hiring too many inexperienced developers at once (to save money), and isn't doing a good jo…

Self taught is the key skill. If you can learn on your own you have a good chance of facing a developers life.

Bootcamps are the opposite. Quick compressed learning certified by a brand. Good for experienced developers learning a new language but lacking for the type who haven't used a computer before.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#307

Post by z3t4 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #241
z3t4 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned programming at 12 years old. I think its funny that people think you need a engineering degree. It does help to get a higher paycheck though.

Everybody I went to college with “learned programming” when they were 12 years old (or younger). They _also_ got college degrees on top of that.

My friends who also learned programing at young age, and later got a engineer degree, say they didn't become better at programming, but it sure helped to get a job.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#308

Post by wutbrodo »

rayiner wrote: post #82

This is a byproduct of the (in my view, very positive) tradition in programming of not requiring a college degree. It offers the political class an easy message for dealing with the ramifications of the jobs exodus in places like Appalachia. Nobody would suggest, for example, training people up as doctors or lawyers or accountants to be a solution to that problem. The degree requirements are a signal: “this is not fo…

> But of course, programming is hard. Most people don’t have the analytical/mathematical mindset necessary to be even competent programmers. All of these coding boot camps and public programs just capitalize on this misconception and wishful thinking.

It works both ways too; When bootcamps first popped up, I was dismissive of them until I realized that there was (to be fair, relatively new) high demand for people who could even do the bare minimum of stringing together CRUD apps, forming a labor market that had nothing to do with me, despite nominally being an "engineer". I think a lot of the pathologies of eng hiring stem from the broadness of the role "engineer", which just ends up causing credentialism and the metaphorical ghetto-ization wrt talent of parts of the stack, like frontend.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#309

Post by zaptheimpaler »

commandlinefan wrote: post #15

I guess people believe what they want to believe, but it should be obvious that if programming is really something you can learn in a few months in your spare time, it’s not going to be a very valuable skill. Either programming requires extensive education and experience to be really proficient (read: employable) in, or it’s going to be a minimum wage “we can throw a rock and replace you this afternoon” call-center j…

Its both - programming is bimodal and becoming more so as we automate. A ton of programming is not really difficult, and cloud/SaaS keeps getting better to make those simple tasks trivial - eg setting up a small ecommerce store or a blog.

Meanwhile the hard stuff is out there, but increasingly being done by a few companies that sell it to the rest of the world.

So programming is becoming more bimodal and if you’re not on the hard curve it is going to become a lot less lucrative and a lot more competitive.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#310

Post by Kalium »

skybrian wrote: post #302
Kalium wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encountered a particularly egregious example of this recently. I was running a group of recent(-ish) hires through a training course recently. Part of it is penetrating-testing a dockerized application on their machines. One of the things the application is vulnerable to is various forms of form tampering attacks. One of my students just stared helplessly at this. They were absolutely stuck. I had no idea why. I ca…

Having been in the situation, all I can say is that sometimes you have to expect "shocking" gaps when working with inexperienced people at not let it throw you. It's part of being a teacher. You have to remain positive. If they're quick to learn it when you teach it to them, it's fine. This is learning on the job and it's expected. That happened to me at Google for someone who didn't come in as a software engineer. I…

Good advice.

In this particular case, my student was hired directly into a software engineering role from outside the company within the past few months. This, to my mind, suggests a whole sequence of failures starting with the contents of the bootcamp.

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