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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

nytimes.com

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#281

Post by deanCommie »

phillipcarter wrote: post #267
mothsonasloth wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree, I would like to blame it on this dichotomy of "frontend and backend development". Most of the bootcampers did three months of "frontend" work and are oblivious to what goes underneath in the murky world of business logic and services. Until they have been able to demonstrate they are confident in: * Presenting data to a user * Validating inputs * Making correct requests and understanding the interac…

> Then they will remain a junior developer Isn't the point that they _are_ junior developers after completing a bootcamp? Juniors can be some of the best people in your organization if your org is willing to take them on and teach them things.

Juniors are great when their inexperience is correlated with youth, fresh outlook on the world, a burning passion for the subject, lack of fear with new ideas that seem controversial to the old guard, and frankly fewer family commitments such that succeeding at their job and learning and growing is their number one priority.

Very little of this applies to people on their second career doing bootcamps for a leg up.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#282

Post by jayd16 »

whack wrote: post #181
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Many of the things you said sound pretty representative of new CS graduates as well. It'll take them at least a year, and a lot of mentoring, to learn the best practices and get their hands dirty. I get the impression the problem at your company isn't with bootcamp-vs-CS-graduates. I suspect the problem is that your company is hiring too many inexperienced developers at once (to save money), and isn't doing a good jo…

A self motivated person can break into CS but that's not what he's talking about. A 16 week class isn't enough to prepare a dispassionate person looking for anything.

The problem with these camps is they help those who don't need it.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#283

Post by Nasrudith »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #13

The untrustworthy city slicker stereotype doesn't come from nowhere. Nobody ever engages with these people except to take their money or tell them they're backwards hicks and their way of life is somehow wrong/bad (this being an example of the former).

Just because it "comes from somewhere" doesn't mean it is valid. The rural they would already be disinclined to trust those from without - their mechanisms of trust are based upon personal knowledge and history which outsiders lack.

Also the latter is clearly bidirectional. I haven't heard of the urban calling the rural "not real Americans" for one.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#284

Post by maxxxxx »

throwawayjava wrote: post #265
maxxxxx wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always think the we should send CS graduates to a bootcamp to get some coding skills. Or send old-time devs so they get up to speed with newer tech. But starting from zero in 12 weeks seems almost impossible except for a few.

Being able to learn these things on your own is exactly what a CS degree is supposed to teach. In my career, I've taught myself how to make complex CLIs. Then CGI-based web apps. Then Java desktop apps. Then MVC frameworks. Then JS frameworks. Etc. Ditto for changes in development and deployment processes. Ditto for changes in DB technology. etc. My employer rightfully expected that, for a six figure salary, I should…

Maybe at some point you will notice that once you have more responsibility in one area it will use up all our time and energy and you simply don't have time to learn other stuff on the side. I am in that situation right now and I think an 8 week bootcamp to focus on Machine Learning would be a good starting point. I could learn it myself but I would need some dedicated time to focus on it and not have to worry about my regular job.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#285

Post by hermitdev »

whack wrote: post #181
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Many of the things you said sound pretty representative of new CS graduates as well. It'll take them at least a year, and a lot of mentoring, to learn the best practices and get their hands dirty. I get the impression the problem at your company isn't with bootcamp-vs-CS-graduates. I suspect the problem is that your company is hiring too many inexperienced developers at once (to save money), and isn't doing a good jo…

I think part of the problem is people assuming CS degrees teaching software development and best practices. They don't. They teach theory and on the side as either a lab or project, you write some code. Best practices? Nope. SCM? Nope, unless you have an external influence.

Like you, I learned a lot of beat practices on the job. SCM? Was SourceSafe (Yeah. I know, cringe, but also 2000). But also practices about how to release, when, notification of releases, post mortem of incidents, none of that was mentioned in school. All on the job.

I landed in finance, and any single fuck up can land you on the wrong side of the door. But if you accept you screwed up, most people I've worked with will give you a second chance as long as you don't repeat your mistake.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#286

Post by hluska »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

> Yes its snobby, but I didn't study and spend my student loan on my passion just so I can train up a bunch of people looking for the "easy life".

It is extremely snobby and frankly, I feel sorry for the poor juniors who are forced to learn from you. Very few of us entered the workforce with the requisite skill to succeed. Some of us were lucky enough to learn from amazing mentors. Others were cursed to attempt to learn from people with your attitude.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#287

Post by eecsninja »

hluska wrote: post #286
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

> Yes its snobby, but I didn't study and spend my student loan on my passion just so I can train up a bunch of people looking for the "easy life". It is extremely snobby and frankly, I feel sorry for the poor juniors who are forced to learn from you. Very few of us entered the workforce with the requisite skill to succeed. Some of us were lucky enough to learn from amazing mentors. Others were cursed to attempt to le…

I've been in OP's boat, mentoring people (normal hires, not from boot camps) who couldn't be bothered to put in the effort. It was a colossal time and energy sink.

My attitude today is that you have to put in the initial effort to demonstrate that whatever I invest in training you will be paid off by your future work using that training over and over again. Otherwise it's a wasted investment.

And that attitude is basically that of the old kung fu master: First prove that you are a worthy student, then I will spend time to teach you. Yet in a modern software dev environment, it somehow becomes snobby and elitist?

Edit: I've gotten the same criticism from elsewhere, so the the parent comment (which has since been flagged) is not unique.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#288

Post by hluska »

I’m not shocked by HN’s attitude towards bootcamp grads, but I am very surprised that so many here are blaming the grads and not the bootcamps themselves.

Bootcamps use absolutely disgusting marketing techniques to appeal to people with little ability outside of being able to pay tuition. Their grads are closer to victims.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#290

Post by duxup »

throwawayjava wrote: post #250
duxup wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is really disheartening is for those of us who went to camps.... we're painted with the same brush after people have experiences with our bad classmates. About half my coding camp class was unemployable by my estimation. At one interview I'm fairly sure they had interviewed a classmate or two before me and the questions they asked were painfully simple to start.... if they felt they had to ask that, I can't imag…

> I had another technical career previous to this one This seems to be the huge differentiator. I've had really good experiences with boot camp grads who had a previous technical career or came from a STEM phd. Camps are great for getting already well-educated people up to speed on how to hack together a website, which is an enormous value add to an existing skill set.

Absolutely, familiarity with troubleshooting, how layers of technology interact, dealing with new tech regularly, working with technical teams is a big leg up.
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