Live data from Hacker News

Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

bloomberg.com

31–40 of 237 posts

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#31
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest source is the closure of many existing nuclear plants and the cancellation of all but one which we're planned for the US. It's not well known that the industry requires billions in government subsidies to even exist today. If taxpayers are footing the bill, that tells you that selling electricity isn't paying its own way. Fewer people still know that nuclear plants are uninsurable, for somewhat obvious r…

Nuclear plants in the USA are closing early specifically because electricity revenue dropped below what was expected (and needed) to pay for operation and maintenance costs. Revenue dropped specifically because fracked natural gas became very cheap and undercut the price in deregulated markets. The idea that nuclear plants are net energy negative is very inaccurate. A 1 GWe plant runs for 60 years releases roughly 20…

"Carbon-free" is a standard industry lie. Uranium mining and processing produces massive amounts of carbon and pollutes the earth with tailings.

The nuclear industry externalizes their costs so that they don't ever hit the balance sheet.

What is "insurance for global warming?" That isn't even a thing. But government insurance for nuclear plants is very much a thing.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fast neutron reactors can. Most thorium MSRs are slow neutron reactors and struggle to transmute significant used nuclear fuel.

My understanding is that Thorium reactors are far less likely to produce transuranic elements with long half-lives, and less waste in general (two order of magnitude). [1] However, it does in fact require some fissile material such as recycled plutonium, so the two reactor kinds can work in conjunction to yield a net drop in long-half-life nuclear wastes. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_po…

Here's the authoritative summary of the capabilities of transmutation and partitioning [1].

Thorium reactors do indeed produce fewer transuranics, since Thorium-232 is 6 AMUs lower down the chain than Uranium-238. Used nuclear fuel is generally 95% U-238, 1% Pu and minor actinides, and 4% fission products. If you do chemical separation to partition the transuranics you can then try to burn them in a variety of reactors. In slow-neutron reactors using Thorium or Uranium fuel, they'll burn ok if they're well partitioned. In fast-neutron reactors, you can burn them with out as aggressive of partitioning. So it's probably easier and cheaper to reprocess UNF for fast reactors. They're far less sensitive to neutron-poisons and fertile species (e.g. fission products and U-238).

Any breeder reactor will make 2 orders of magnitude less TOTAL waste than a non-breeder. Thorium can breed with slow neutrons (which requires continuous removal of the neutron poisons via online chemistry, usually requiring fluid fuel). Uranium can breed with fast neutrons in solid fuel or in fluid fuel. Note I say total waste, not high level waste. High-level waste is proportional only to the burnup (fraction of the fuel you put in that gets fissioned) and doesn't include any process waste from before that (e.g. enrichment or reprocessing waste like U-238).

In a fast neutron uranium-fueled reactor, you can transmute the hell out of all actinides, leading to waste that decays to low levels in a few hundred years. See the link below.

Thorium's only true physical advantage is that it alone allows breeding with slow neutrons, which can be done with low fissile densities. Other than that, Uranium and Thorium have pretty similar characteristics and capabilities in advanced reactors.

[1] https://www.iaea.org/publications/7112/implications-of-parti...

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#33
post #9

> The idea is to transmute this nuclear waste into new forms of atoms which don’t have the problem of radioactivity. What you have to do is to change the makeup of the nucleus. Ok, but what exactly is it transmuting the atom to?

Radioactive materials are dangerous because their subatomic makeup is unstable, meaning they emit dangerous particles as the atom degrades from the inside. So it would seem that, in order to fix that, you'd have to re-populate the innards of the atom with enough protons to make it stable again. It's worth noting that transmutation is definitely possible. The alchemists of old would be thrilled to know that we can, in…

That didn't answer the question asked at all.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#34
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest source is the closure of many existing nuclear plants and the cancellation of all but one which we're planned for the US. It's not well known that the industry requires billions in government subsidies to even exist today. If taxpayers are footing the bill, that tells you that selling electricity isn't paying its own way. Fewer people still know that nuclear plants are uninsurable, for somewhat obvious r…

Nuclear plants in the USA are closing early specifically because electricity revenue dropped below what was expected (and needed) to pay for operation and maintenance costs. Revenue dropped specifically because fracked natural gas became very cheap and undercut the price in deregulated markets. The idea that nuclear plants are net energy negative is very inaccurate. A 1 GWe plant runs for 60 years releases roughly 20…

And, as far as deaths go, you can't get numbers for something you didn't count. No real accounting has ever been made of the number of people who got cancer and/or died from nuclear activities, starting with the activities at the Hanford Site on through atmospheric testing and today's nightmares like Fukushima.

The nuclear industry regularly uses this technique of "nothing to see here" to hide the fact that all nuclear plants leak and discharge radiation. All produce waste with an un-fixable lifecycle.

As far as your Wikipedia link, it was uploaded by an individual person. No references there.

Helen Caldicott is widely respected and far more of an authority on the subject that you or I or the journalist at the Guardian whom you cite.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#35
post #30

Or we could just use that valuable fuel and put it into nuclear reactors to make energy and other useful stuff. But that seem to be a totally crazy idea.

Reprocessing is its own nightmare and, I think, only France tries to do it. All of these processes (the "uranium cycle") are terribly polluting in their waste outputs and dangerous places for the people who have to work there and live near them.

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#36
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear plants in the USA are closing early specifically because electricity revenue dropped below what was expected (and needed) to pay for operation and maintenance costs. Revenue dropped specifically because fracked natural gas became very cheap and undercut the price in deregulated markets. The idea that nuclear plants are net energy negative is very inaccurate. A 1 GWe plant runs for 60 years releases roughly 20…

"Carbon-free" is a standard industry lie. Uranium mining and processing produces massive amounts of carbon and pollutes the earth with tailings. The nuclear industry externalizes their costs so that they don't ever hit the balance sheet. What is "insurance for global warming?" That isn't even a thing. But government insurance for nuclear plants is very much a thing.

> "Carbon-free" is a standard industry lie.

Wrong. Here is an IPCC meta-analysis reference from a consensus of scientists showing that it's very low, 12 gCO2-eq/kWh, on par with wind. Solar is 40. Natural gas is 490 [1]. See Table A.III.2 | Emissions of selected electricity supply technologies.

Think about it. There is 2,000,000x more energy in a kg of uranium than in a kg of coal or gas or oil or lithium. A single train car of uranium can power a nuclear reactor for a year, vs. a mile-long traincar per day for a equivalent power coal plant. Energy density is where nuclear shines. And shines it does! That's why it's exciting and useful for a carbon-free future. It's the only large-scale low-carbon energy source we have that runs 24/7 and can be installed in very many geographical locations. It also has a tiny overall footprint. This is why James Hansen and Jim Lovelock and Bill Gates are so excited about it.

Same data in graphical form too, if you prefer [2].

[1] https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5...

[2] https://i.imgur.com/IpeULoF.png

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear plants in the USA are closing early specifically because electricity revenue dropped below what was expected (and needed) to pay for operation and maintenance costs. Revenue dropped specifically because fracked natural gas became very cheap and undercut the price in deregulated markets. The idea that nuclear plants are net energy negative is very inaccurate. A 1 GWe plant runs for 60 years releases roughly 20…

And, as far as deaths go, you can't get numbers for something you didn't count. No real accounting has ever been made of the number of people who got cancer and/or died from nuclear activities, starting with the activities at the Hanford Site on through atmospheric testing and today's nightmares like Fukushima. The nuclear industry regularly uses this technique of "nothing to see here" to hide the fact that all nucle…

Yeah that's not really true. Incredibly extensive accounting was done for instance on the total number of premature deaths from Chernobyl, and the UN sets the number right around 4000 from all causes -- including people who committed suicide because they thought they were 'contaminated'. The current radiation levels in Pripyat are around the same as being on an airplane [2, 3] and much, much, much lower than getting a CT scan. FWIW, they continued to operate reactors on the site until 2000.

This stuff is incredibly well studied. [4]

The total number of premature deaths from burning fossil fuel is 7.3 million every single year. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_accidents

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_di...

[3] https://www.livescience.com/65450-weird-chernobyl-facts.html

[4] https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/b...

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear plants in the USA are closing early specifically because electricity revenue dropped below what was expected (and needed) to pay for operation and maintenance costs. Revenue dropped specifically because fracked natural gas became very cheap and undercut the price in deregulated markets. The idea that nuclear plants are net energy negative is very inaccurate. A 1 GWe plant runs for 60 years releases roughly 20…

And, as far as deaths go, you can't get numbers for something you didn't count. No real accounting has ever been made of the number of people who got cancer and/or died from nuclear activities, starting with the activities at the Hanford Site on through atmospheric testing and today's nightmares like Fukushima. The nuclear industry regularly uses this technique of "nothing to see here" to hide the fact that all nucle…

> No real accounting has ever been made of the number of people who got cancer and/or died from nuclear activities,

First of all, nuclear weaponry waste from WW2 and the Cold War are wholly unrelated to activities of civilian nuclear power. While the material is similar in nature, you do not need to melt commercial waste down into radioactive vats of acid to extract pure weapons-grade plutonium in order to make low-carbon commercial nuclear energy. The civilian waste is solid ceramic and sits on parking lots at nuclear sites, where multiple decades of waste can fit nicely on a small area. Again, that's the glory of high energy density.

For Chernobyl and Fukushima, people absolutely count the effects. For example, UNSCEAR's entire mission is to do just that [1]. So far the counts are in, ~60 direct deaths from Chernobyl plus up to 4000 early cancer deaths on top of a few million that would have occurred naturally (small increase). Up to 1 death from Fukushima. As it turns out, more people die from coal plants operating normally every day than have died from nuclear accidents ever.

> As far as your Wikipedia link, it was uploaded by an individual person. No references there.

That'd be Figure 2 from the CBO in [2].

Helen Caldicott is the laughing stock of many respectable scientists. Don't make me dig up some of the ridiculous stuff she's said. She's a true clown.

[1] https://www.unscear.org/docs/reports/2008/09-86753_Report_20...

[2] https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/re...

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Thorium reactors are far less likely to produce transuranic elements with long half-lives, and less waste in general (two order of magnitude). [1] However, it does in fact require some fissile material such as recycled plutonium, so the two reactor kinds can work in conjunction to yield a net drop in long-half-life nuclear wastes. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_po…

Here's the authoritative summary of the capabilities of transmutation and partitioning [1]. Thorium reactors do indeed produce fewer transuranics, since Thorium-232 is 6 AMUs lower down the chain than Uranium-238. Used nuclear fuel is generally 95% U-238, 1% Pu and minor actinides, and 4% fission products. If you do chemical separation to partition the transuranics you can then try to burn them in a variety of reacto…

Thank you! This is why I come here :)

Re: Zapping Nuclear Waste in Minutes Is Nobel Winner’s Holy Grail Quest

#40
post #35
post #30

Or we could just use that valuable fuel and put it into nuclear reactors to make energy and other useful stuff. But that seem to be a totally crazy idea.

Reprocessing is its own nightmare and, I think, only France tries to do it. All of these processes (the "uranium cycle") are terribly polluting in their waste outputs and dangerous places for the people who have to work there and live near them.

What nightmare? Reprocessing is a net cleanup compared with letting the waste sit. I have some nuclear engineering background and honestly I don’t know what you’re referring to.
Post reply on HN