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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

nytimes.com

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#261

Post by bigred100 »

learc83 wrote: post #172
sideaccount wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could still administer a coding test to the bootcamp certificate holders. Just because you have a CS degree does not mean we hire you without a coding test. Some of the least productive coders I have worked with have had degrees. Most degrees only prove that you have some ability to memorize things, practical application is a very different skill.

>Most degrees only prove that you have some ability to memorize things, practical application is a very different skill. My degree put very little focus on memorization. Individual and group projects certainly had nothing to do with memorization. My experience hiring and working people from other schools indicates that their degrees were similar. I'm not sure where this degree == memorization thing comes from.

I don’t really know either. Obviously a degree isn’t a necessary or sufficient condition for competence, but I don’t know why a lot of people seem to pretend it’s borderline useless, a scam, etc.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#262

Post by megaremote »

murphy214 wrote: post #137
MattyRad wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've shared this experience of being a mentor and babysitter for people who seek all the things you listed, although in my case it's inexperienced coworkers who are "self taught" (no boot camp even). Their charisma and our shallow interviewing process usually lands them a job and leaves me cleaning up after the messes they perpetually make. You would think proper communication would prevent these things, but often th…

24 yo CE here with FE here, the question becomes do you think a test can be designed for something as large as software to accurately judge competency. Competency in code comes from getting stuff wrong and having to live with it and fix it, that stuff isn't super easy to test.

You don't even need a test. Just drill down on one particular area and see how much they know.

For example, get them to explain a model they would use to represent user login. Then get them to explain how that would link to their use info. Then how they would display that on a login screen. Then how they would save that into the database. Anything to watch out for? Any security concerns?

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#263

Post by joe_the_user »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#264

Post by shard972 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #263
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

.

Why are you assuming this is a class issue? Are you implying that the lower classes are not as intelligent/not as capable?

I just saw it as a people issue.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#265

Post by throwawayjava »

maxxxxx wrote: post #161
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

I always think the we should send CS graduates to a bootcamp to get some coding skills. Or send old-time devs so they get up to speed with newer tech. But starting from zero in 12 weeks seems almost impossible except for a few.

Being able to learn these things on your own is exactly what a CS degree is supposed to teach.

In my career, I've taught myself how to make complex CLIs. Then CGI-based web apps. Then Java desktop apps. Then MVC frameworks. Then JS frameworks. Etc. Ditto for changes in development and deployment processes. Ditto for changes in DB technology. etc.

My employer rightfully expected that, for a six figure salary, I should be a professional who is able to keep up with best practices. That's why they pay me well. They let me attend conferences and I negotiate for some "experimentation" time whenever there's a big shift in the tech landscape, but it's not like I'm disappearing for months at a time every 5 years. That'd be insane.

I'm not very old.

Hell, I don't even work in web development.

It's just one of those skills I need to keep fresh because it comes in handy every once in a while.

The changes in my actual domain of expertise have been even larger and much more difficult to keep up with.

Coding bootcamps are expensive -- they often cost on the order of a single year of college. If you're going to need to go through a few of them in your career just to keep up with a single skill set -- building UIs -- that's more of a baseline competence than a real specialty, why not front-load and just get a good-quality degree that prepares you to teach yourself the easy stuff? Double major while you're at it.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#266

Post by closeparen »

joe_the_user wrote: post #263
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

.

If they had received a CS education they would be in a different class.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#267

Post by phillipcarter »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #79
hatchnyc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience, and I'll add I have noticed there is a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software is. I remember beginning my career what I think used to be a quite common experience of being quite a bit overwhelmed by how much I had to learn, very aware that I didn't even know what I didn't know and this definitely motivated me. This awareness is completely absent from 1…

Completely agree, I would like to blame it on this dichotomy of "frontend and backend development". Most of the bootcampers did three months of "frontend" work and are oblivious to what goes underneath in the murky world of business logic and services. Until they have been able to demonstrate they are confident in: * Presenting data to a user * Validating inputs * Making correct requests and understanding the interac…

> Then they will remain a junior developer

Isn't the point that they _are_ junior developers after completing a bootcamp? Juniors can be some of the best people in your organization if your org is willing to take them on and teach them things.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#268

Post by povertyworld »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #97
jen20 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - I was 5 or so when I started programming - however when I chose a degree leading to a math-based degree vs studying music (which I would have done otherwise), job prospects for an easy life were very much top of mind.

There we go, it was curiosity then. I was a late bloomer and didn't program till I was 12 and that was modding Command and Conquer. If you don't have intellectual curiosity, then I think your career prospects in software engineering will be limited. Perhaps I should have articulated it better above. What I meant is that many of these bootcampers don't have that curiosity or drive to have touched code before their cou…

You think there aren't tons of people who do CS degrees that lack curiosity? I've helped students with their CS homework who, when I asked why they were majoring in CS when they obviously did not like it, literally said their parents picked their major. So, I'm sorry, when people on here say that getting a bachelors in CS is some indicator of "natural curiosity" aka "geekiness" I would say it is the complete opposite.

I should add I don't have a CS degree, yet I'm doing the homework for the "dedicated" "curious" "high aptitude" etc. CS grads you'll be hiring later. Ha.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#269

Post by rubyboss »

joe_the_user wrote: post #263
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

.

Outraged social justice responses like this is the reason why the OP gave you a trigger warning. But I guess you chose not to heed the warning.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#270

Post by Lazare »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

You're describing an unfortunate situation, but it feels like you may have mis-identified the issue.

> I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps.

Your employer is trying out a new HR strategy to cut costs and boost productivity. Is that strategy working for them? It doesn't sound like it's working for them if they're hiring bad coders and driving away experienced staff. Do they think it's working? Is your management aware of your concerns?

Because honestly, this sounds a lot like "my management team is doing something dumb, and it's all the fault of the new junior devs we hired". That sounds unlikely.

Also:

> I didn't study and spend my student loan on my passion just so I can train up a bunch of people

Mentoring is a key part of the job. If your HR department is hiring poor candidates for that, that's an issue, but if you don't want to mentor people at all, is this really your passion?

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