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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

nytimes.com

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#231

Post by Kalium »

ip26 wrote: post #122
Kalium wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? A better question, perhaps, is why this is assumed to equate to coding-based jobs. Anyone can learn to cook. This shouldn't be equated to everyone being equipped to become a chef de cuisine.

At the same time, just because not everyone is chef de cuisine material, doesn't mean there's no point in their learning to cook. The theme in this comment thread seems to be something like, "Only rockstars should learn to code, it's pointless for normal people".

> The theme in this comment thread seems to be something like, "Only rockstars should learn to code, it's pointless for normal people".

Perhaps it could be read slightly more charitably? Anyone can learn to code. At the same time, most people should not assume this will automatically lead them into a lucrative career in software engineering.

As you say, it's by no means pointless for normal people to learn. A great many people derive much value and satisfaction from homecooked meals and Excel macros. However, just as basic competency in a home kitchen does not automatically qualify one for a career as a chef, neither does basic competency with a programming language automatically qualify one for a career as a highly compensated software engineer.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#232

Post by CM30 »

Kalium wrote: post #21
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

> where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? A better question, perhaps, is why this is assumed to equate to coding-based jobs. Anyone can learn to cook. This shouldn't be equated to everyone being equipped to become a chef de cuisine.

Of course, not everyone is equipped to become a chef de cuisine. But not every cook needs to become that to make a living from their profession, just like not every coder/developer/programmer needs to know high end computer science concepts or how to work with the latest framework.

In the same way most chefs don't work at Michelin star restaurants, most developers don't work at FAANG companies like Google. They work at other types of companies, whether those are large company in house development teams, small agencies, outsourcing companies, government agencies or as freelancers.

And in those locations, you don't really need to be some super smart genius to get the job done. Coding themes and plugins for systems like WordPress doesn't require a computer science background or an analytical mindset. Building a percectly usable site or app for a local business doesn't require that either. Enterprise or government work often doesn't require it either.

So there are plenty of jobs available for people who know only a bit of code, or who struggle with the theory side of things. They're just not jobs making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in Silicon Valley.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#234

Post by Kalium »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #223
Kalium wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's great, but what about the people who come from a non-engineering background? I feel like people with a technical background will be able to pick up coding a lot quicker than people who don't have a lot of engineering aptitude. You're almost certainly correct. It's perhaps possible that the bootcamp model, which can work well for people with solid technical backgrounds, might not work equally well for others.…

I'd say that simply suggests boot camps for people without STEM backround should likely take longer. (Best, they should take as long as they need to until the student demonstrates competence, but that would break the "pay up-front, train a fixed amount of time, get a nice job" business model / marketing strategy.)

I think the basic business model is akin to any other kind of school. The issue at hand is that they're dropping the things that make other schools work: admissions and structured instruction.

Unfortunately, those things aren't fripperies to be tossed away lightly.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#235

Post by commandlinefan »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

> very soon go to a place where there is a coding test

Sadly, I fear that will be like “going to a place that doesn’t require unpaid overtime” or “going to a place that doesn’t have a noisy airplane hangar ‘open office’” - once it catches on, it will spread everywhere.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#236

Post by Kalium »

jen20 wrote: post #113
mothsonasloth wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree, I would like to blame it on this dichotomy of "frontend and backend development". Most of the bootcampers did three months of "frontend" work and are oblivious to what goes underneath in the murky world of business logic and services. Until they have been able to demonstrate they are confident in: * Presenting data to a user * Validating inputs * Making correct requests and understanding the interac…

> Then they will remain a junior developer and I think that will be many of these bootcampers fate This is a fair assessment - not just of boot camp developers but of all developers. I don't think I agree that it is a problem that some people working as a junior developer today will never become a Technical Fellow, however. I've personally found (especially in the "enterprise") that many senior developers do not actu…

I think it's worth bearing in mind that people who sign up for bootcamps generally expect to have a normal career trajectory. They do not expect to spend their careers as effectively junior developers. They genuinely believe they will become Technical Fellows, and expect that a bootcamp will get them started.

Few bootcamps seem to do a good job of teaching students what to expect in a career path or what they'll need to do to advance in it.

I think our industry is headed for a collective reckoning, though I would not begin to speculate on a timeline. We're going to have to square seniority as a measure of skill with seniority as a measure of time, and no matter how it happens a number of people are going to be unpleasantly surprised.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#237

Post by dilyevsky »

mathattack wrote: post #125
mothsonasloth wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the main reasons were: * The local management are non-technical and have a rudimentary equation that 1 developer = 1 productivity unit * The bootcamp has some really great salespeople * Hiring is generally difficult for great dev talent, so their logic is just to hire anyone for the numbers, otherwise their budget gets constrained by kafkaesque finance practice from the companies HQ. * Local political and P…

On point 1, perhaps it’s time to whip out the Mythical Man Month?

Yeah good luck with that. Most managers I talk to still think adding more people to late project = faster delivery.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#238

Post by dilyevsky »

joejerryronnie wrote: post #157
mothsonasloth wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the main reasons were: * The local management are non-technical and have a rudimentary equation that 1 developer = 1 productivity unit * The bootcamp has some really great salespeople * Hiring is generally difficult for great dev talent, so their logic is just to hire anyone for the numbers, otherwise their budget gets constrained by kafkaesque finance practice from the companies HQ. * Local political and P…

Sounds like four political reasons. Better strap in for the long haul cause it doesn’t sound like things are gonna change quickly. Unless you happen to find that person who can understand and motivate developers while navigating the political power structure toward real solutions. Unfortunately, those people are even more rare than the 10x developer.

3 is not political. It’s hard to maintain hiring standards in this crazy market when you’re under business pressure to scale and it’s only natural management gets desperate after some time. I’ve seen this firsthand several times.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#239

Post by Kalium »

CM30 wrote: post #232
Kalium wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? A better question, perhaps, is why this is assumed to equate to coding-based jobs. Anyone can learn to cook. This shouldn't be equated to everyone being equipped to become a chef de cuisine.

Of course, not everyone is equipped to become a chef de cuisine. But not every cook needs to become that to make a living from their profession, just like not every coder/developer/programmer needs to know high end computer science concepts or how to work with the latest framework. In the same way most chefs don't work at Michelin star restaurants, most developers don't work at FAANG companies like Google. They work…

You're right.

The disconnect here, I suspect, is that bootcamps tend to promise that their grads will become the rockstars making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in Silicon Valley. Not that they'll be able to set up WordPress or do reporting with SQL queries. Some make this very, very explicit - I've seen ads that literally read "GET A SIX FIGURE JOB".

I've worked as a freelancer. I've worked at big-name tech. I've worked on in-house development teams and outsourcing companies. In every one of those scenarios, I had to understand the fundamentals of how computers work and apply analytical abilities to be effective. So I could deliver features on time, on budget, and as specified. I'm not going to claim to be some super smart genius, but I often found myself dealing with shrapnel from colleagues who possessed wonderful opportunities to improve their grasp of fundamentals.

It's not that there aren't jobs for line cooks or people turning out cookie-cutter blog sites. But when you run a training program promising everyone who signs up that they'll be a chef de cuisine while knowing that you're just training line cooks...

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#240

Post by hcho »

walshemj wrote: post #233
hcho wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any location that comes close to SV?

But you just said the pay was comparable between the UK and USA ???

Indeed. Not much difference between, say London and NYC. SV is an outlier, even with in US.
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