They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia • Hacker News Board

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#201

Post by kazinator » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

gingabriska wrote: post #58

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

I've no idea why coding should be anymore special than basic reading/writing skills. Code is a way to express solution to the problem which a computer can execute. If you can learn any language, you can learn coding too. Sure, not everyone can understand intricacies of the algorithm design and data structure gotchas but some of that can come as experience and curiousity. Question worth asking is that, does everyone n…

Not every human who can speak a language is a great speaker, storyteller or writer.

Writing a program is like a very detailed story that has to hang together. There can't be any loose ends in the plot or surprising twists that make no logical sense.

More than requiring language, programming requires thought.

The faculty of language doesn't confirm thought.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#202

Post by duxup » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

I went from a different technical career through a coding camp. I loved the experience.

Having said that I'd say at least half my class was unemployable by the end. The camp did not filter candidates nearly enough and really hurt the class and I fear their own financal well being.

I think coding camps could be done right, I just don't know if anyone is really doing it right...

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#203

Post by povertyworld » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #130

jimmaswell wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can learn it in a few months in your spare time if you're cut out for it, which the vast majority are not. CS education for programming jobs is mostly a very expensive formality to convince hiring managers you know what you already knew before enrolling, or at least it was in my case.

"You can learn how to be a lawyer in a few months in your spare time if you're cut out for it" would be considered a ridiculous statement. Perhaps you could learn enough to be an assistant to a legal secretary. The same applies to programming.

There was a time when it was possible to sit for the bar exam without having to pay rent to a law school, but naturally the law schools lobbied to change this.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#204

Post by duxup » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

hatchnyc wrote: post #72

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

This has been my experience, and I'll add I have noticed there is a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software is. I remember beginning my career what I think used to be a quite common experience of being quite a bit overwhelmed by how much I had to learn, very aware that I didn't even know what I didn't know and this definitely motivated me. This awareness is completely absent from 1…

> just how complicated modern software is

I went to a coding camp. I sat in a group working with my classmates on our group project and I noted that what we were learning was "just enough so that we can learn reasonably well on our own.... so that maybe later we will be good at this".

They looked horrified...

Most boot camp students really do not know at all the level of complexity involved, how much you need to just go figure out yourself / learn about ... learning, and etc.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#205

Post by freewilly1040 » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Bootcamps don’t provide an adequate training to become an engineer, yes, but believe it or not there are plenty of very good engineers who have things besides work at the top of their value list. Your post reflects narrow mindedness and a lack of empathy.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#206

Post by walshemj » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

IggleSniggle wrote: post #192

coconut_crab wrote: post #83

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

> It may sound weird but actually many people here didn't picked their university by themselves but by the guidance of their parent, so they might study something else than their favourite. Hello! This was me. Studied music because it’s what my parents wanted me to do, and kept finding ways to shoehorn “computer stuff” into any music I was doing: making digital synths, making music analysis programs, and coding up ge…

Interesting its normally parents wanting kids to do one of the big 3 law, medicine and engineering.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#207

Post by freewilly1040 » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:58 PM UTC

chomp wrote: post #11

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

To adapt a quote from one of my favorite movies: "Not everyone can become a great coder; but a great coder can come from anywhere ." That's what (in my opinion) you should take away from "everybody can code." I think it's obvious that not every single person in the world has the external characteristics to be a great software developer. But those with passion and curiosity will be able to make a great career for them…

Are you sure? Seems to me that less skilled and less dynamic engineers are the first people to have their jobs automated away.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#208

Post by walshemj » Sun, May 12, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #112

jdhn wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. That's great, but what about the people who come from a non-engineering background? I feel like people with a technical background will be able to pick up coding a lot quicker than people who don't have a lot of engineering aptitude. >We work with the Bootcamp to improve their program: giving reference to 'har…

> That's great, but what about the people who come from a non-engineering background? I feel like people with a technical background will be able to pick up coding a lot quicker than people who don't have a lot of engineering aptitude. You're almost certainly correct. It's perhaps possible that the bootcamp model, which can work well for people with solid technical backgrounds, might not work equally well for others.…

That is true but the cohort that have that background is relatively small - in the example mentioned ex miners there will have been a small proportion of such people but a lot will have retrained and gone to work in gas oil or fracking which pays a lot more.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#209

Post by walshemj » Sun, May 12, 2019, 8:02 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #49

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Why did your company fall for this? The only logical reasons I’ve seen are an inability to hire otherwise, and staff moonlighting at the boot camps. Both are bad reasons.

Its a UK company so they have the British Disease = "don't want to pay for training"

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#210

Post by duxup » Sun, May 12, 2019, 8:02 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

What is really disheartening is for those of us who went to camps.... we're painted with the same brush after people have experiences with our bad classmates.

About half my coding camp class was unemployable by my estimation. At one interview I'm fairly sure they had interviewed a classmate or two before me and the questions they asked were painfully simple to start.... if they felt they had to ask that, I can't imagine they'd ever want to hire someone at that level. Obviously I showed them otherwise and the interview went well, but I felt like their perception was so poor to start, there was no chance.

At least I'm working now so it's not just "coding camp" on my resume as far as coding goes (I had another technical career previous to this one). I"m hesitant to mention the coding camp when I meet other people who are in the same industry. I really enjoyed my coding camp experience (going back to school was a surprisingly wonderful experience as I was a poor student earlier in life) and yet I'm inclined to say "self taught" and that isn't exactly true although much of what I know now would fall into that category.