They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia • Hacker News Board

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#191

Post by nitrogen » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #112

jdhn wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. That's great, but what about the people who come from a non-engineering background? I feel like people with a technical background will be able to pick up coding a lot quicker than people who don't have a lot of engineering aptitude. >We work with the Bootcamp to improve their program: giving reference to 'har…

> That's great, but what about the people who come from a non-engineering background? I feel like people with a technical background will be able to pick up coding a lot quicker than people who don't have a lot of engineering aptitude. You're almost certainly correct. It's perhaps possible that the bootcamp model, which can work well for people with solid technical backgrounds, might not work equally well for others.…

I've worked with biology and philosophy majors who came from boot camps and they seem to be just as competent as any other junior developers.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#192

Post by IggleSniggle » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

coconut_crab wrote: post #83

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

> It may sound weird but actually many people here didn't picked their university by themselves but by the guidance of their parent, so they might study something else than their favourite.

Hello! This was me. Studied music because it’s what my parents wanted me to do, and kept finding ways to shoehorn “computer stuff” into any music I was doing: making digital synths, making music analysis programs, and coding up generative music machines.

That path worked well enough, so it took me awhile to realize I ought to give up the pretense of music and just do the thing I was interested in full-time. The pay difference was indeed the incentive to re-tool, however.

I used a boot camp, where I learned the current faddish tools of frontend, to get connected into the industry, and have since happily transitioned to backend work. I’m not sure the boot camp itself was necessary, and 20 years ago I probably would have found an enthusiast group at a city library or something, but it was a short term functional community that worked for me.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#193

Post by nitrogen » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #132

coconut_crab wrote: post #83

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

>almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience around here anyway) I feel you. I think there is no pool more shallow than the one of C programmers that can work on embedded in my area. Regardless of what your background is, I’ve already had to commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire.

Out of curiosity, what's your area, and what channels do you use for hiring? Sounds like exactly the kind of work I might enjoy (and spent several years doing for my old startup) depending on industry, location, and compensation, but all I ever see are Java and web jobs.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#194

Post by marcinzm » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

MattyRad wrote: post #182

murphy214 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

24 yo CE here with FE here, the question becomes do you think a test can be designed for something as large as software to accurately judge competency. Competency in code comes from getting stuff wrong and having to live with it and fix it, that stuff isn't super easy to test.

You're right, it would be pretty difficult to make a test that actually gauges competency. That shouldn't necessarily be a reason not to try though. Honestly, it might be easier to adjust the hiring process. If the hiring process were able to easily select driven individuals who retain "software engineer" as part of their identity, and people that take pride in their work, seek constructive criticism and want to lear…

>That shouldn't necessarily be a reason not to try though.

I'd argue that if a test could select good SEs then companies would be giving tests (or outsourcing such tests) as part of their interview process. It's not like a lot of thought, effort and experimentation hasn't gone into figuring out how to hire software engineers.

>Honestly, it might be easier to adjust the hiring process. If the hiring process were able to easily select driven individuals who retain "software engineer" as part of their identity, and people that take pride in their work, seek constructive criticism and want to learn, then that would be good enough.

I'd like to note that a test would not select for any of those things except the ability to study hard.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#195

Post by bittercynic » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

xenadu02 wrote: post #141

erentz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of them do. This one seems like an outright scam, but for example well known boot camps like Lamba School put you through some tutorials and tests before hand. When you look at these tutorials it really seems to be a filter for “can you teach yourself coding”. IMO making the bootcamps fairly useless given the huge amount of online courseware and free tutorials available now.

It’s no different than hiring a personal trainer. Sure everyone can go to the gym but having a set schedule, paying money, and being accountable to someone is a life hack that uses human social nature to one’s advantage.

It's a little different because you know from the start that hiring a personal trainer is not going to magically make you prosperous.

There is a widespread idea that working in tech is easy and will make you rich, and all you have to do is get your toe in the door, and many "entrepreneurs" use that misunderstanding to set up programs that waste students time and extract money from donors and government programs that are unable to meaningfully evaluate what they're donating to.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#196

Post by erik_seaberg » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #190

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience around here anyway) I feel you. I think there is no pool more shallow than the one of C programmers that can work on embedded in my area. Regardless of what your background is, I’ve already had to commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire.

> commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire. Google broadly believes it takes 6-12 months for a new hire to become completely productive, so I doubt that particular aspect of your experience is due to shallowness of the embedded (straight) C (not C++) talent pool in your area.

Google did a lot of pioneering work and created a proprietary stack. This used to be a big competitive advantage, but the industry largely caught up and now the incompatibility is mostly just tech debt that everyone has to ramp up on.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#197

Post by nitrogen » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

cannonedhamster wrote: post #180

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience around here anyway) I feel you. I think there is no pool more shallow than the one of C programmers that can work on embedded in my area. Regardless of what your background is, I’ve already had to commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire.

There's no such thing as someone you're not going to have to train. Every single company does something different. To suggest that you're not going to have months of train up isn't feasible. I wish this mindset would go away. Training is, and should be an integral part of any workplace. It's what makes your whole team better, it's what makes everyone have a similar style, and shows people the expectations. This goes…

I agree with this 100%, even as an experienced engineer I want to continue to give and receive ongoing training. Yet I've actually been told in some settings not to even mention the "T" word because it would be seen as offensive. Instead as an industry we have ridiculous expectations in hiring and an inefficient, informal training process in the form of production failures.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#198

Post by yawaramin » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #159

mratzloff wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can learn how to be a lawyer in a few months in your spare time if you're cut out for it" would be considered a ridiculous statement. Perhaps you could learn enough to be an assistant to a legal secretary. The same applies to programming.

They're not the same thing at all. Being a lawyer involves cramming in an enormous volume of rote information over many years and passing an exhaustive exam; programming is just a combination of problem solving, being able to deal with abstract concepts and how computers work, and learning a relatively small amount of syntax and general concepts. You can easily get a grip on all that in a few months if it's your thin…

> learning a relatively small amount of syntax and general concepts

In what programming job?! Junior frontend dev churning out React components? Even there you're dealing with a dizzying array of HTML, CSS, and ever-changing JavaScript/Babel/Webpack/etc. insanity. In a few months you can barely produce some simple, low-quality code. It takes a lot longer for the concepts of good quality code to sink in.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#199

Post by hcho » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

brian-armstrong wrote: post #151

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Given how little UK pays developers in general, is there any reason good devs shouldn't move away from there anyway?

At will employment in UK pays compareable to US.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#200

Post by nitrogen » Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

erik_seaberg wrote: post #196

fragmede wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire. Google broadly believes it takes 6-12 months for a new hire to become completely productive, so I doubt that particular aspect of your experience is due to shallowness of the embedded (straight) C (not C++) talent pool in your area.

Google did a lot of pioneering work and created a proprietary stack. This used to be a big competitive advantage, but the industry largely caught up and now the incompatibility is mostly just tech debt that everyone has to ramp up on.

A lot of what's required in onboarding is domain knowledge. Say a fintech engineer gets a job in industrial controls or vice versa; there will be considerable time spent learning about the industry itself, regulatory environment, etc.