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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

nytimes.com

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#181

Post by whack »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Many of the things you said sound pretty representative of new CS graduates as well. It'll take them at least a year, and a lot of mentoring, to learn the best practices and get their hands dirty. I get the impression the problem at your company isn't with bootcamp-vs-CS-graduates. I suspect the problem is that your company is hiring too many inexperienced developers at once (to save money), and isn't doing a good job of hiring the best bootcamp graduates (probably also to save money).

I might be biased since I have an engineering degree, but no CS degree. Self-taught myself a bunch of stuff, made the switch to software, and have now worked for 2 of the FAANGs. My very first software employer certainly had to mentor me quite a bit for the first 4 months, but I certainly justified the investment over the following year.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#182

Post by MattyRad »

murphy214 wrote: post #137
MattyRad wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've shared this experience of being a mentor and babysitter for people who seek all the things you listed, although in my case it's inexperienced coworkers who are "self taught" (no boot camp even). Their charisma and our shallow interviewing process usually lands them a job and leaves me cleaning up after the messes they perpetually make. You would think proper communication would prevent these things, but often th…

24 yo CE here with FE here, the question becomes do you think a test can be designed for something as large as software to accurately judge competency. Competency in code comes from getting stuff wrong and having to live with it and fix it, that stuff isn't super easy to test.

You're right, it would be pretty difficult to make a test that actually gauges competency. That shouldn't necessarily be a reason not to try though.

Honestly, it might be easier to adjust the hiring process. If the hiring process were able to easily select driven individuals who retain "software engineer" as part of their identity, and people that take pride in their work, seek constructive criticism and want to learn, then that would be good enough.

I should also clarify that being self taught isn't necessarily a bad thing (one of the best coworkers I had was self taught), lacking any of the above traits is.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#183

Post by whack »

I understand that building a startup is hard. I've often heard founders being advised to "overpromise" and operate in a "reality distortion field" in order to get the ball rolling. That all works out great when things eventually go well. But sometimes, there's a lot more at stake than simply investor money.

This article does a great job of showing the human carnage that happens when founders overpromise jobs and riches that fail to materialize. Please keep that in mind the next time you are pitching your startup's mission to change the world.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#184

Post by johnsimer »

learc83 wrote: post #27
snazz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen many super-talented self-taught programmers who never received any formal education, and I’ve seen college graduates who can’t get FizzBuzz working. Of course the code camps are scams, but a degree isn’t much better for many people who have very little internal motivation to learn.

People regularly say this. But there is no way you made it through my program without literally paying someone else to do your entire degree without being able to code FizzBuzz. And I went to a no-name state school. I don't doubt that you've seen it, but my guess as that it either was someone from a very poor program, their degree was long time ago and they haven't been doing actual programming since then, or they ju…

I know a few current students who are about to graduate from a top 25 CS school, who struggle writing simple standalone methods (of analogous complexity to FizzBuzz). I personally just think these students "just don't get it"(https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/12/29/the-perils-of-java...). The ones I am talking about in particular are barely squeaking by, but still passing and graduating (without job offers) along classmates who are receiving $150k+ offers from FAANG

If you get enough easy teachers that give partial credit, or that have enough memorization based questions on their tests, and do well in the courses that don't really require deep understanding, it appears that you CAN squeak through and get a degree without really understanding programming.

Albeit, I know plenty of people who "just didn't get it" who did fail out of the CS program at this university, but some of these people do squeeze through.

And then because the 10-20% of graduates from top 25 CS schools who can't really program send in 90%+ of the job applications, you'll get a lot of interviewers saying "So many people with seemingly-good degrees can't even code".

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#185

Post by thebooktocome »

ErotemeObelus wrote: post #163
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

This isn't a soul-crushing job babysitting (only outdone in horror by being in a chicken suit waving a sign for a fried chicken restaurant). This is an opportunity for you to study various psyches and all the gory "this is how sausage is made! details. Also exposure to abnormal psyches. The Chinese word for disaster is opportunity.

> The Chinese word for disaster is opportunity.

That's a well-known false trope. See:

https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1212

and links therein.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#186

Post by MattyRad »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #79
hatchnyc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience, and I'll add I have noticed there is a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software is. I remember beginning my career what I think used to be a quite common experience of being quite a bit overwhelmed by how much I had to learn, very aware that I didn't even know what I didn't know and this definitely motivated me. This awareness is completely absent from 1…

Completely agree, I would like to blame it on this dichotomy of "frontend and backend development". Most of the bootcampers did three months of "frontend" work and are oblivious to what goes underneath in the murky world of business logic and services. Until they have been able to demonstrate they are confident in: * Presenting data to a user * Validating inputs * Making correct requests and understanding the interac…

I think frontend has such a low barrier to entry and such a high degree of fault tolerance that it makes sense that people misjudge their capability.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#187

Post by z3t4 »

coconut_crab wrote: post #83

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

I learned programming at 12 years old. I think its funny that people think you need a engineering degree. It does help to get a higher paycheck though.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#188

Post by [deleted] »

gingabriska wrote: post #58
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

I've no idea why coding should be anymore special than basic reading/writing skills. Code is a way to express solution to the problem which a computer can execute. If you can learn any language, you can learn coding too. Sure, not everyone can understand intricacies of the algorithm design and data structure gotchas but some of that can come as experience and curiousity. Question worth asking is that, does everyone n…

[deleted]

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#189

Post by [deleted] »

hhjinks wrote: post #142
gingabriska wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've no idea why coding should be anymore special than basic reading/writing skills. Code is a way to express solution to the problem which a computer can execute. If you can learn any language, you can learn coding too. Sure, not everyone can understand intricacies of the algorithm design and data structure gotchas but some of that can come as experience and curiousity. Question worth asking is that, does everyone n…

Coding is like math. You have a problem, and need to reach the solution. Often there are specific and concrete steps you need to take to reach the solution. Despite this, a lot of people just don't get math. Being able to go from an abstract problem to a concrete solution isn't just "write code until it works".

[deleted]

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#190

Post by fragmede »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #132
coconut_crab wrote: post #83

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

>almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience around here anyway) I feel you. I think there is no pool more shallow than the one of C programmers that can work on embedded in my area. Regardless of what your background is, I’ve already had to commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire.

> commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire.

Google broadly believes it takes 6-12 months for a new hire to become completely productive, so I doubt that particular aspect of your experience is due to shallowness of the embedded (straight) C (not C++) talent pool in your area.

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