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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

nytimes.com

171–180 of 341 posts

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#171

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

I always think the we should send CS graduates to a bootcamp to get some coding skills. Or send old-time devs so they get up to speed with newer tech. But starting from zero in 12 weeks seems almost impossible except for a few.

Company training used to be very common, but now they just want to whine about how people don't step out of school as senior developers.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#172

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

They could still administer a coding test to the bootcamp certificate holders. Just because you have a CS degree does not mean we hire you without a coding test. Some of the least productive coders I have worked with have had degrees. Most degrees only prove that you have some ability to memorize things, practical application is a very different skill.

>Most degrees only prove that you have some ability to memorize things, practical application is a very different skill.

My degree put very little focus on memorization. Individual and group projects certainly had nothing to do with memorization. My experience hiring and working people from other schools indicates that their degrees were similar. I'm not sure where this degree == memorization thing comes from.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#173
Ms. Laucher on Twitter responding to a critique from the article:

"Retraining won't fix it. Give them UBI. Free training programs should only have viable candidates when it isnt for quick $"

Is the last sentence a little ironic given the article?

Source (perhaps will be deleted): https://twitter.com/pandamonial/status/1127627288676270081

Edit: To be fair, in other comments she claims many of the statements in the article are false and refused to comment for the article based on legal advice. I assume there are two sides to this story and the NY Times article does seem pretty one sided.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#174
post #122
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? A better question, perhaps, is why this is assumed to equate to coding-based jobs. Anyone can learn to cook. This shouldn't be equated to everyone being equipped to become a chef de cuisine.

At the same time, just because not everyone is chef de cuisine material, doesn't mean there's no point in their learning to cook. The theme in this comment thread seems to be something like, "Only rockstars should learn to code, it's pointless for normal people".

>At the same time, just because not everyone is chef de cuisine material, doesn't mean there's no point in their learning to cook.

Cooking and coding aren't amalgamous. Cooking is necessary life skill, unless your only sources of sustenance are prepackaged foods or food from restaurants (which would include fast food).

The same cannot be said for coding. You needn't know or even understand technology or software to use a cell phone or browse the internet or what-have-you.

A more apt comparison would've probably been driving but even that is limited in scope, dependent on the public services available (which is, in and of itself, a byproduct of urban life versus rural life - at least in the states).

Also, I think Hanlon's Razor applies here.

The idea that everyone can make a stellar income from being a developer is oft touted as one of the points of these boot-camps. In other words, the argument is that those people can do it, it's just that they've never been afforded the opportunity.

Whilst this might be true for a small percentage of the group, as a whole, it isn't - implicitly - true that all of them will find jobs being programmers the day after they graduate these camps.

So, it isn't pointless for them to learn it, by far (and I'm only speaking for me, here), but it shouldn't be touted as the get-rich-quick-scheme that it's being pushed as because, then, yes, it's pointless for people to think it's possible to become a rockstar overnight; which I would like to point out is precisely what this business has capitalised on...

To continue with the analogy of music, even rockstars had to play gigs and sell records/tapes as up & comers (negating the pop genre) before they became big. People only hear the songs on the radio, they don't want to hear about the years it took before those stars were even given spins on the radio (see: Jewel living out of her van).

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#175
They just hint at it, but the solution to the problem is already there for such people. Keep your job, go to a community college, and if you have the aptitude and build up the credits, transfer to WVU (or whatever) for the completion. Even failing that last part, an associates degree is still better than a phony cert.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#176

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

It’s not that you are training people. It is that your company is taking advantage of you to get public funds. You did not state it but I bet so.

This is so EU...

Happens in Spain all the time.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#177
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> developers have an easy life, getting into work whenever they choose Why exactly is that the wrong reason?

Nothing wrong with that, but if I ask you why did you become a developer and you list that as a main reason, then I will immediately dismiss you as not being serious.

Why are you asking people why they became a developer? That has nothing to do with their ability to do the job. You're in a professional environment, so ask the relevant question: do they have a learning mindset? That's really the only thing that matters.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#178

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

To sum up:

* Your job is no longer easy

* ----

* You have to help people, no longer get to play with your toys all day

* You hate your current job

* ----

I'm seeing a pattern of 3/5 but only because I'm assuming you aren't a mother. If I was wrong, Happy Mother's Day!

Have you ever been in a company where senior people were responsible for helping new people? Or, are you searching for that company where everyone comes in magically perfect and at exactly the same level of competence? I've never been at that company, when you find it, please share it here so we can all go work there.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can learn how to be a lawyer in a few months in your spare time if you're cut out for it" would be considered a ridiculous statement. Perhaps you could learn enough to be an assistant to a legal secretary. The same applies to programming.

They're not the same thing at all. Being a lawyer involves cramming in an enormous volume of rote information over many years and passing an exhaustive exam; programming is just a combination of problem solving, being able to deal with abstract concepts and how computers work, and learning a relatively small amount of syntax and general concepts. You can easily get a grip on all that in a few months if it's your thin…

I disagree that it takes just a few months.

I'd say there are tons of hidden dependencies you have to learn in writing programs. Stuff that the tutorials and books often leave out. And that most developers take a few years to learn these dependencies, because there currently is no widely-known easy way to learn all this "tribal knowledge".

And when universities try to systematize ways to learn this tribal knowledge, they come up with a curriculum that takes most people 4 years to get through. (Yes there are many smart developers who could learn the curriculum faster.)

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#180

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

>almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience around here anyway) I feel you. I think there is no pool more shallow than the one of C programmers that can work on embedded in my area. Regardless of what your background is, I’ve already had to commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire.

There's no such thing as someone you're not going to have to train. Every single company does something different. To suggest that you're not going to have months of train up isn't feasible. I wish this mindset would go away. Training is, and should be an integral part of any workplace. It's what makes your whole team better, it's what makes everyone have a similar style, and shows people the expectations. This goes for internal code process as well as external code and tools. Embedded especially is going to be hard because it's a specialized skill set that's far harder than people realize especially once you get into space constraints.
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