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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#131

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #116
ConnorLeet wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are problem solving skills something you are born with? To me the mismatch is that a traditional CS student spends more time practicing problem solving via homework and exam/exam prep.

> Are problem solving skills something you are born with? Yes, most definitely.

Would it be reasonable to assume people's innate problem solving skills, to the extent they are innate, combined with how their problem solving skills have been guided pedagogically, fit a bell curve?

Is it reasonable to assume some people will land on the far lefthand side of certain bell-curve-fitting measurables, or unmeasurables, that lends them to being not particularly well suited for certain kinds of activities?

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#132

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

coconut_crab wrote: post #83

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

>almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience around here anyway)

I feel you.

I think there is no pool more shallow than the one of C programmers that can work on embedded in my area.

Regardless of what your background is, I’ve already had to commit to 6 months of training for anyone I hire.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#133

Post by purple_ducks »

matwood wrote: post #30
brianwawok wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s weird. No one says anyone can be a basketball pro, here’s a play basketball boot camp to get you into the NBA. But clearly there is demand for a lot more programmers than NBA players. The kind of people who make good programmers are competing with people going into law and finance. More programmers means less lawyers and less business people. Which I guess is fine, but it is weird to just assume anyone can do it…

The NBA is a bad analogy. That would be closer to saying that anyone can get a job at Google. Most programming jobs are not Google, and more akin to rec league basketball. With desire and practice many people can be effective rec league players.

Google is not analogous to the NBA.

It's the IBM of the 2010's.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#134

Post by MattyRad »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

I've shared this experience of being a mentor and babysitter for people who seek all the things you listed, although in my case it's inexperienced coworkers who are "self taught" (no boot camp even). Their charisma and our shallow interviewing process usually lands them a job and leaves me cleaning up after the messes they perpetually make. You would think proper communication would prevent these things, but often they are so alack of experience it goes right over their head, and other times they're overconfident or just disinterested in improving themselves. If you try and give them too much constructive criticism, then you quickly become the office asshole.

Other engineering industries have to take rigorous exams to achieve any forward momentum in their job (civil engineering had the PE, for example). This is something I think I could get behind for our industry .

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#135

Post by SamReidHughes »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #131
SamReidHughes wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are problem solving skills something you are born with? Yes, most definitely.

Would it be reasonable to assume people's innate problem solving skills, to the extent they are innate, combined with how their problem solving skills have been guided pedagogically, fit a bell curve? Is it reasonable to assume some people will land on the far lefthand side of certain bell-curve-fitting measurables, or unmeasurables, that lends them to being not particularly well suited for certain kinds of activitie…

I don't know whether it forms a particular curve or what kind. But the fact is only a small proportion of the population has the innate talent for software development.

As long as people can practically attract a mate while lacking this sort of abstract reasoning ability, the majority of the population won't have it.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#136

Post by Analemma_ »

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

> where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from?

From VC and business owner "thought leaders" who have an economic incentive to flood the market with programmers and drive down salaries.

(Oops, I forgot we're not supposed to say that out loud...)

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#137

Post by murphy214 »

MattyRad wrote: post #134
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

I've shared this experience of being a mentor and babysitter for people who seek all the things you listed, although in my case it's inexperienced coworkers who are "self taught" (no boot camp even). Their charisma and our shallow interviewing process usually lands them a job and leaves me cleaning up after the messes they perpetually make. You would think proper communication would prevent these things, but often th…

24 yo CE here with FE here, the question becomes do you think a test can be designed for something as large as software to accurately judge competency. Competency in code comes from getting stuff wrong and having to live with it and fix it, that stuff isn't super easy to test.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#138

Post by [deleted] »

clarry wrote: post #91
hatchnyc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience, and I'll add I have noticed there is a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software is. I remember beginning my career what I think used to be a quite common experience of being quite a bit overwhelmed by how much I had to learn, very aware that I didn't even know what I didn't know and this definitely motivated me. This awareness is completely absent from 1…

> I have noticed there is a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software is. There's also a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software needs (not) to be. That said I agree that some 3-month bootcamp probably isn't enough time to really internalize the basics of programming (unless you're really smart or have prior exposure), let alone learn to design and…

[deleted]

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#139

Post by mikeash »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #87
jen20 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dismissing someone as “not serious” because of their reasons for following a particular career path says a lot more about the person doing the dismissing than those being dismissed. By the parent’s criteria, I am “not serious”. My record on OSS and early work at companies which were acquired or have outsized valuations suggests the parent is 100% wrong, however.

Fair enough but what you have said shows to me that you are most likely a 10x'er, therefore I would say you're in a different league altogether. Tell me, when you typed your first line of "Hello world" in C, Python etc. Was your motivation to have an easy life?

Lots of people don’t have the opportunity to get into programming for fun or because they think it’s interesting. A person could reasonably go into programming when choosing a major in college never having written a line of code, and end up doing great.

Our perceptions of programmers are shaped by the PC revolution of the 1980s. A lot of people got exposed to programming because there was a PC in the house. Kids and teens so exposed tended to be the ones who went into programming as a career, just because they had a head start and because they were more familiar with it. The result is that many of the best programmers in the profession in the 90s and 00s were the ones who started as kids. But many of the mediocre and bad ones were too!

Passion and early starts are overrated. As long as a person is smart in the right way and reasonably enjoys the stuff, they can be a great programmer. (And I say this as someone who started programming at the age of 6 and did it for free for many years.)

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#140

Post by [deleted] »

mathattack wrote: post #49
mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Why did your company fall for this? The only logical reasons I’ve seen are an inability to hire otherwise, and staff moonlighting at the boot camps. Both are bad reasons.

[deleted]
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