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Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

seattletimes.com

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Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#161

Post by inferiorhuman »

kortilla wrote: post #138
JudgeWapner wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The engine mounting certainly does not make the plane unsafe. I don't think this is a very...'precise' statement. what is "safe" in the context of aviation? If you had no MCAS, then this plane has a very bad propensity to stall . I hope we can both agree that's an unsafe airplane. You can't just say "don't do that [pull up too much] and then you're fine". The aircraft "wants" to pitch up too high and stall, which p…

No, it did not “have a bad propensity to stall”. That’s a very imprecise statement in the first place but if you take it to mean, it would try to stall during normal flight conditions, it’s definitely false. Airbus aircraft are “safe” despite the fact that dual conflicting pilot input is averaged without stick feedback (see the Airfrance flight from Brazil). If electronics being used to fly the aircraft upsets you, y…

No, it did not “have a bad propensity to stall”.

Okay, how's: you can use thrust to pitch up a 737 beyond the authority of the elevator.

Airbus aircraft are “safe” despite the fact that dual conflicting pilot input is averaged without stick feedback (see the Airfrance flight from Brazil).

There is an aural warning (DUAL INPUT) on Airbuses with conflicting input.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#162

Post by inferiorhuman »

rdl wrote: post #67
old-gregg wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bugs will be addressed and they'll still fly. The engines are mounted incorrectly, so much so that Boeing believed pilots need the assistance of MCAS on take-off now. The bug isn't with its algorithms, rather the need for MCAS to begin with. They can't "address" it. That's why I'll be very careful not to ever book a flight on a 737 Max, probably easier to simply stick to Airbus-only airlines: Jetblue, Alaska/Vi…

Alaska is Boeing, Virgin is Airbus, Alaska/Virgin is primarily Boeing...

And Bombardier and Embraer.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#163

Post by mandeepj »

djsumdog wrote: post #28

What is the endgame now for 737 MAX planes? Every airline using them has had several weeks to totally reorganize to deal with these huge missing parts of their fleets. Boeing keeps talking about fixing them and putting them back in the air, but I dunno. At this point, it should be agreed the fundamental design flaws are serious, and Boeing should have simply made a brand new plane, with much more modern controls and…

> but that cost pails to the money lost from these grounded fleets

They did not think - it'd ever happen. The shortcuts were taken for bringing 737 max quick to market.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#164

Post by Aeolun »

djsumdog wrote: post #28

What is the endgame now for 737 MAX planes? Every airline using them has had several weeks to totally reorganize to deal with these huge missing parts of their fleets. Boeing keeps talking about fixing them and putting them back in the air, but I dunno. At this point, it should be agreed the fundamental design flaws are serious, and Boeing should have simply made a brand new plane, with much more modern controls and…

This would be nice, but both airlines and Boeing are too big to fail so it won’t happen.

Airlines need their airplanes, and if boeing would recompense them for the lost planes they’d be instantly out of business.

Conversely, the carriers cannot just write off a significant part of their fleet and buy new ones, which wouldn’t show up for years anyway.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#165

Post by Aeolun »

joe_the_user wrote: post #64
erentz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the endgame now for 737 MAX planes? The bugs will be addressed and they'll still fly. Airlines have no choice, there's a limited capacity in the world for airplane construction, several thousands of orders on the books for the 737 and 320 waiting to be filled. What can an airline do? They can cut back some orders but not all orders. > I'd honestly like to see the 737 MAX taken out of service and Boeing simp…

I'm not an engineer but what about: A) Adding two more angle-of-attack sensors so a pilot can be reasonably sure of auto-adjust will work. Retrofitting those would be expensive, of course. B) Put the two buttons back the way they were and add a "light" indicator an angle-of-attack sensor failure. C) More pilot simulator training so pilots know what to expect in the unusual situation that the system fails. I suspect t…

It’s very expensive, but not nearly as expensive as losing all their 737 Max orders.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#166

Post by dredds »

ilaksh wrote: post #134
salawat wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given. However, in Engineering, it is totally expected that when you start getting into areas that sketchy, you say "No. The best I can do is this. I'm sorry." Instead, Boeing saw dollar signs, and threw caution and people's lives, and years of good will to the winds.

The people making the decisions weren't engineers. They were managers. And they just passed the buck to the engineers who actually had to go along with it to keep their jobs. And I know people will try yo claim that it was the engineers fault and they should have just refused and gotten fired. But engineers have mortgages and have to work for a living. They can't afford to career suicide just because their boss is be…

There's also a lot more understanding of the corporate and political culture against whistleblowers, so even engineers or managers with good morals would not risk the backlash of endless lawsuits or corporate shaming. We should add this to the list of contributing factors given that a few whistleblowers have only come forward after-the-fact.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#167

Post by Aeolun »

bushido wrote: post #112
skellera wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don’t even think about the plane they’re flying in. It will not be that big of an issue to continue using them unless some group actively tries to warn passengers about flying in those specific planes.

It seems like this is becoming a concern now - per: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/07/barclays-downgrades-boeing-s... The primary reason for the downgrade being: Barclays’ survey of airline passengers says many people will avoid the 737 Max “for an extended period” once the aircraft is flying again.

Yeah, they say that, but when they get their non-refundable ticket and see it is in an 737 MAX. How many do you think will sue their airline claiming a refund?

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#168

Post by TomVDB »

bushido wrote: post #112
skellera wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don’t even think about the plane they’re flying in. It will not be that big of an issue to continue using them unless some group actively tries to warn passengers about flying in those specific planes.

It seems like this is becoming a concern now - per: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/07/barclays-downgrades-boeing-s... The primary reason for the downgrade being: Barclays’ survey of airline passengers says many people will avoid the 737 Max “for an extended period” once the aircraft is flying again.

Here’s my thought experiment on that: if I booked a flight to my vacation destination and, at the last moment, I discovered that I’d be flying in a 737 MAX, would I cancel my trip or pay a considerable amount of moment to get all our tickets changed?

I very likely would not. Would you? Would others?

It’s one thing to answer a question of a pollster, it’s another to take concrete action.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#169

Post by Aeolun »

cjbprime wrote: post #156
skybrian wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I probably should have calculated the number of successful flights to avoid this. But, nowhere did I say any country is better than any other. That's your inference.

I can help with that -- the MAX is suffering hull losses per flight completed at a rate about 100x that of comparable planes like the A320. Totally off the charts.

It’s such a weird statistic to use though. One crash takes a really long time to recover from in that score. So even if the 737 Max was magically fixed tomorrow, the score wouldn’t change.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#170

Post by TomVDB »

skybrian wrote: post #104
hirowan wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're putting the safety record into chauvinist context, to be exact. An AoA failure is sufficiently rare for it to have only occured in a couple of occasions in - shockingly - only a couple of countries.

Okay, I probably should have calculated the number of successful flights to avoid this. But, nowhere did I say any country is better than any other. That's your inference.

What was your original motivation to bring up the country aspect?
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