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Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

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Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#161

Post by SimeVidas »

superasn wrote: post #71

Why doesn't Google treat all websites that load under 100ms at par with an AMP site? They keep using the ruse that AMP is important because it is all about fast loading sites and less frustrating user experience but they have page speed insights, and already rank sites based on load speed so why force this non standard on everyone? If they just said we'll give you a bolt icon and the perks for a site that loads under…

Google Search loads AMP pages from Google AMP Cache. It doesn’t matter how fast a website is. Google needs the assurance that it gets by loading content from their own servers.

(I don’t work at Google. I’m just guessing.)

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#162

Post by anfilt »

anfilt wrote: post #142

This also makes it more obvious why google is trying to create this new portal tag. They don't won't people leaving google at all. Link to discussion on the proposed portal tag. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19866584

Can't edit any more, but it's not even a guess any more.

https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/contributi...

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#163

Post by HALtheWise »

anfilt wrote: post #153
HALtheWise wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, because it isn't actually possible to make a website that loads in under 100ms on poor connections any other way. For reference, on the fast university wifi I am currently connected to, news.ycombinator.com loads in 499ms. When I switch to my phone's hotspot, that rises to 2.38 seconds, and on a simulated slow 3G network, that rises to 6.51 seconds. I haven't tested a 2G connection in India, but wouldn't b…

Caches disabled... The browser caches things for a reason. I understand disabling caches to measure the network performance. However, that does entirely give a clear picture. If your wanting things you have already visited to load instantly it's hard to beat the browsers own caches. The first thing that effects page time is network latency and there is no getting around that. AMP may help because google has lots of s…

It simply isn't true that there is no getting around network latency. For example, when I tap an image in a Facebook feed in their app, the story actually does load instantly, regardless of how slow my network is, because it is already downloaded on my device. It may even work offline. AMP is an attempt to match that performance with web pages.

Sure, none of this is true if the user manually types into the address bar, but most web navigation isn't done that way.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#164

Post by hw »

memo_ree wrote: post #68
MrStonedOne wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mobile user, I fucking hate it. I hate that every fucking google search result on mobile web has its stupid little icon I hate that there is no way for me to disable it as a user I hate that it has muddied the waters in what the url bar means I hate that it has trained users to not question fake url bars. I hate that cloudflare so thoroughly jumped on its dick I hate that we invented a way to fake the address in…

> I hate that there is no way for me to disable it as a user Yeah, seems like you should be able to. Just curious, where would you want that option to appear, and how would you want to see the search experience change as a result?

I think you're approaching it from the wrong POV. First of all, the option needs to be on the site owner/developer side on whether to adopt AMP or not - and not have the decision of not adopting AMP adversely affect search ranking.

As a user, I should just see whatever the site lets me see. If they decide AMP is best for user experience, I would no doubt get it. If they decide to show a responsive mobile friendly site because it works best, then show me that.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#165

Post by HALtheWise »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #148
HALtheWise wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, because it isn't actually possible to make a website that loads in under 100ms on poor connections any other way. For reference, on the fast university wifi I am currently connected to, news.ycombinator.com loads in 499ms. When I switch to my phone's hotspot, that rises to 2.38 seconds, and on a simulated slow 3G network, that rises to 6.51 seconds. I haven't tested a 2G connection in India, but wouldn't b…

The dumb thing is that for me AMP doesn't even work. It doesn't seem to reliably preload.

It's possible that it's an artifact of some browser extensions or something, or it could be they just messed up the implementation (or that some heuristic is trading off bandwidth and latency). Implementing things is hard, and Google certainly didn't get AMP perfectly right. Hopefully the standardization efforts will be able to learn from the experience they have deploying at scale.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#166

Post by cameronbrown »

lwansbrough wrote: post #90
izacus wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's akin to large governments swooping in and regulating industries when they start hurting people en masse. Web developers weren't professional enough to make the web fast. AMP isn't the right solution, but the community itself was incapable of policing itself so it was just a question of time before it happened. Before that, people were massively moving to the apps because the web got too slow and unusable on…

Who elected Google to act on our behalf? Free market takes care of slow sites. Either they’re too slow to use or they’re not.

Last time I checked, Google is part of the free market, no? This is exactly how free markets work. And if it turns out AMP is really bad for the web, then the reverse will happen too at some point.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#167

Post by FridgeSeal »

HALtheWise wrote: post #163
anfilt wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caches disabled... The browser caches things for a reason. I understand disabling caches to measure the network performance. However, that does entirely give a clear picture. If your wanting things you have already visited to load instantly it's hard to beat the browsers own caches. The first thing that effects page time is network latency and there is no getting around that. AMP may help because google has lots of s…

It simply isn't true that there is no getting around network latency. For example, when I tap an image in a Facebook feed in their app, the story actually does load instantly, regardless of how slow my network is, because it is already downloaded on my device. It may even work offline. AMP is an attempt to match that performance with web pages. Sure, none of this is true if the user manually types into the address ba…

That latency and network slowness still exists. It’s just being hidden from you.

It’s disingenuous to compare AMP style loading with a normal page visit and say “AMP is faster”; if I could preload my webpage before you click on it, it would be faster to load as well! That doesn’t actually mean the website is any faster.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#168

Post by dang »

geekone wrote: post #86
izacus wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the severe downvotes for your question: Nothing. It didn't make a difference when Google announced penalties for slow loading sites and nothing would make a difference now. Hence why web developers of HN are so angry at AMP - it bans them from building sites filled with 20MB of JavaScript bloat. If you read through HN history, you'll see hundreds of comments belittling anytone that complained about webpag…

>If you read through HN history, you'll see hundreds of comments belittling anytone that complained about webpage size and slow loading - usually defending it with a "noone has time to optimize things and build without these huge libraries" argument. Any examples? My limited reading experience here has been the opposite.

Nearly all such generalizations about HN are quite wrong; this one seems particularly off.

I think it's because comments we don't like make a much stronger expression than comments we do, so they weigh more heavily in forming our impression. This also explains why people arrive at such contradictory generalizations: it's because they like different things.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#169

Post by vatueil »

dang wrote: post #132
lioeters wrote: post #19

As much as I'm often dismayed by the negativity on HN (or, let's say, brutal honesty: "this product is shit!") - harsh reactions are definitely warranted for cases like this anti-competitive behavior. Let's keep raising the stink, I hope the powers that be are paying attention. (Long-time DDG and Firefox user, doing my best to de-Google myself and my loved ones)

It's actually not so common that comments are as throughly negative as that. Rather, there are lot of partially negative comments, the kind where the author often doesn't even realize they're coming across that way. When you get enough of those, fumes accumulate into an atmosphere of negativity that is hard to breathe in. I think this is what leads to an overall impression that sticks. Unfortunately, this kind of neg…

> And yes, this topic is something of an exception.

Is it, though? The top comments include ad hominem attacks on Google engineers, such as the replies to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19886610

I appreciate how you responded to the worst attack, at least, but the general viciousness is still disappointing. I don't work for Google, but I'm sure not eager to present a contrary view if I'm just going to be mislabeled a shill. Doubly so for anyone who does work at Google, I imagine. Possibly developers from other members of the AMP Project's governing committees as well, including Cloudflare, Twitter, and Microsoft: https://blog.amp.dev/2018/11/30/amp-projects-new-governance-...

I don't want criticism of AMP censored, but I don't think AMP should be an exception to the rule against negativity either.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#170

Post by dfabulich »

bduerst wrote: post #155
dfabulich wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AMP is not fast because it's served from google's CDN. That's a lie, It has always been a lie, and it will always be a lie. AMP is fast because it's incompatible with 99% of the bullshit client cpu heavy tracking and ad libraries, so they don't get included inside AMP pages. AMP is fast because of prefetching. That's not a "lie." You can measure this. When you click an AMP link, the page is already downloaded. Pref…

Link prefetching and rendering isn't unique to AMP - it was even added by W3C to be part of the HTML5 standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_prefetching#Prefetching_i... Even Internet Explorer will prefetch and render pages.

Yes, but if you use that feature, the prefetched sites will fingerprint you and track you.
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