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Books and lectures don't work

andymatuschak.org

101–110 of 162 posts

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#101
Am I the only one to think the article missed a trick here?

Yes, it may be that traditional books don't work as well as they might. I do know I frequently read articles and come away with very little to show for the time spent. I think partly that's a function of the setting - I seem to retain much more from paper or e-ink compared to something read on a VDU. It's probably also a function of my own state of mind. I know I retain much more when I'm rested and reading earlier in the day. I also retain much more the day after, when I've had time to sleep on something.

And yet, there is something about the art of learning. I did a really good Coursera course that went through this (How to learn), and it, too, explained the importance of working to engage with material. Even doing something like looking away every few paragraphs and giving yourself a quick test to see if you can summarise what you just read works wonders. Combine that with spaced repetition, exercise, sleep and memory tricks like a memory palace, and retention/understanding grows hugely. So I do think there's something to this article.

But I also think about some classic articles that are also models of what they are discussing, and I'm wondering why the author didn't attempt something similar. For example, here's a description of the importance of varying sentence length in writing that at the same time is an example of the very practice of what it's talking about:

"This sentence has five words. Here are five more words. Five-word sentences are fine. But several together become monotonous. Listen to what is happening. The writing is getting boring. The sound of it drones. It’s like a stuck record. The ear demands some variety. Now listen. I vary the sentence length, and I create music. Music. The writing sings. It has a pleasant rhythm, a lilt, a harmony. I use short sentences. And I use sentences of medium length. And sometimes, when I am certain the reader is rested, I will engage him with a sentence of considerable length, a sentence that burns with energy and builds with all the impetus of a crescendo, the roll of the drums, the crash of the cymbals–sounds that say listen to this, it is important." = Gary Provost.

Here's an article about suspense that's also a model of the very thing it's talking about:

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/08/a-simple-wa...

Given this is possible, I'm disappointed. I tend to agree the article made sense and that there are better and worse models of how to engage with a text. It's even possible that a text can self-guide a novice reader through good techniques simply by good writing. So, my disappointment. I think the article definitely missed a trick here, which would have been to go one level deeper, and tried to not only discuss the importance of a new type of text, but to do so with a model of the very text the author was talking about. As a result, although I think it may be possible to do what the author is describing, I don't know how anyone might go about it. And I'm not sure I fancy reading an entire book on a subject that doesn't interest me all that much in order to find out, either.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#102

This guy seems to be searching for that magic pillow that you put the book under and sleep upon and later wake up with all the information & learning you were after downloaded and integrated into your person. He says the key to getting there is better understanding our cognitive learning models. But ask anyone who has mastered 'learning' (plenty such people exist) and they won't confess to you any magic pill. Each ti…

(Author here) You might be amused to learn that I actually have looked into prospects for technologies around learning in one's sleep. Unfortunately, things don't look great. But you might enjoy this paper, on learning smell–sound associations during sleep: https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.3193

To your central point: you're right that effortful engagement is a hugely important ingredient for learning, so we shouldn't aspire to simply remove effort. But do you think that there's nothing that can be done in an explanatory artifact to support the knowledge construction process you're describing? To make it any easier, at all?

Just as an intuition pump, imagine comparing 1. Euclid's Elements, with no figures; 2. Euclid's Elements with figures. Does the latter addition ease knowledge construction? If so, why wouldn't we expect it to be possible to take more steps of the same kind?

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#103

Am I the only one to think the article missed a trick here? Yes, it may be that traditional books don't work as well as they might. I do know I frequently read articles and come away with very little to show for the time spent. I think partly that's a function of the setting - I seem to retain much more from paper or e-ink compared to something read on a VDU. It's probably also a function of my own state of mind. I k…

(Author here) You're right that the piece would have been better if I'd done this. But if it helps, my co-author and I did it here: https://quantum.country.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#104

Books were a product of their time. Interactive media allows us to leverage techniques such as annotations, in-context model building and testing, building memorization using spaced repetition which should make an immense difference in learning effectiveness. It's a shame that Google, who wanted to organize all of the world's information, still struggles if you want to find best learning resources (books, videos, pod…

IMO, I think google was never designed to really drive people to highly detailed resources. Google is more similar to something like wikipedia where it gives you the high-level overview instead. It makes sense as well that it is like this because the vast majority of people want the basic information, not super detailed information, so over time most of the authoritative sites (sites with tons of backlinks) end up just being sites that are "overview" sites, not a comprehensive resource for the subject.

That's why there is still value by going to someone who is an expert in the subject to basically curate the information for you....like in a course. The problem is most of the experts in the subject work for universities and have no interest in giving their services away for free or the people that do are only able to give a basic course in the subject (coursera, udacity etc.) with limited resources that make self-studying the subject difficult.

I think we need something similar to YELP but for online courses that can be used to self-study. There might be 100 online physics courses but no one really knows which one is "best". Some might only have a textbook, others might only have lecture notes and then a few might actually be very comprehensive....but no one knows this unless there is some sort of review/recommendation site to use.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#105

This is a very well thought-out analysis of the textbook and lecture modalities for learning. I don't understand the virulent negative responses from many of the comments here—perhaps it's just a reaction about the clickbaity title? Take it easy y'all. The thesis of the article is much more nuanced that the title would suggest. A more appropriate title would be "Analysis of the relative benefits of textbooks and lect…

I think that the author spent too much time problematizing books and teachers in exaggerated scenarios. At least for this audience and medium. Most people are aware that the cognitive burden to internalize the material is on the student. Very few people actually believe that a book or a teacher can transfer knowledge directly into a student. This led to numerous "you're holding it wrong" negative type of responses.

I feel that I have to take the time to say that your comment is great. It conveys the same message as the article but in three short paragraphs and two examples. Also the API analogy is right on the mark to drive this message through to this audience.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right that I don’t treat motivation seriously enough in this piece. It’s very true that you will absorb nothing from a book which you do not read. The framing which drove me was: isn’t it odd that even readers who are quite motivated to read a book still often absorb fairly little?

> It’s very true that you will absorb nothing from a book which you do not read. That's not quite what I mean by motivation. To be more specific I should say 'intrinsic motivation'. I'm assuming the book is actually read in either case, motivated or unmotivated. Let's take the case of Selfish Gene. You can be strongly motivated to read it because it's something educated people are supposed to have read. This is not '…

Gotcha. Yep, I'm sympathetic to this view.

Research stemming from Piaget suggests the need to introduce information not authoritatively but rather in response to "disequilibria"—authentic intellectual needs in the listener/reader. Of course, good authors can also work to create these disequilibria.

Do you think that the presence/lack of this intellectual need is the highest-order bit? That is: if you really have questions you want answers to, you're not going to have any trouble absorbing what you need, no matter the medium's shape? I guess I see it as a both-and situation!

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#107
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would reading be better at conveying this info then video

Because you spend more time on it? My reading is definitely slower than youtube videos. And still a bit slower than most lectures.

Interesting, for me it's the other way around - I'd prefer to read because the videos are so slow; a transcript of a video can be read something like four-five times quicker than the video itself. Lecture videos can be listened with the audio sped up 1.5-2 times (though it really degrades the quality and can be hard to understand at times) but it's still much slower than reading the same thing, at least for me. I mean, the whole notion of proper sight-reading (without mental subvocalization) is because it's not possible to speak as fast as you can read.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#108

I do believe it would be possible and advisable to create an interactive medium on the web that leverages spaced repetition and maybe integrates with other apps to periodically remind you or quiz you on facts you should know. It's an intriguing idea.

I agree as well. The kicker here is that the resource has to be well developed, comprehensive and use effective ways to teach the subject. Most online courses I've seen aren't comprehensive, don't really have any effective tools and are sloppily created overall.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#109
post #30

Try only learning things with books for 4 months and then tell me it doesn't work. I tend to notice that learning from books get a lot harder if I allow my brain to be flooded with whatever chemicals are released when I watch youtube or game of thrones. If I avoid those for a while, and avoid sugar etc, and if I work out every day and get enough nutrients etc, then my ability to learn via books is no trouble at all.…

I agree that having a disciplined focus on learning as an exercise...there is more work on your part as a reader.

I think the point from the article is that we have richer ways to convey information. I feel like that is fair. I mean we type out our thoughts, the most ineffective way to share our passion around a topic.

I'd be interested in a seeming statement you are making; the book vs video (or possibly the attempt of mixing and matching).

Ask me again after I try reading their book Quantum Country to tackle this richer repetitive approach.

I work with a lot of those folks that burn through the book a day and exercise their WPM speed to the 6 and 7 hundreds....they talk about the book after but its lost a month later and only fragments remain.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#110

I think you might be reading books wrong if that's what you're hoping to take out of them, that is, remember this or that specific quote out of it. For me, at least, the value of a book is changing your way of thinking, or better yet, present new questions that you did not even dare to ask. I would recommend Darwin's own Origin of Species instead of Dawkins' Selfish Gene. I've read both. They can't even begin to comp…

I vehemently agree with the theme of your message, and of course the fine quote at the end.

But I have a non-trivial quibble -- please don't be too quick to dismiss Richard Dawkins' science writing. Keeping comparisons with the giant, i.e. Darwin, aside, Dawkins is one of the most eloquent science writers. On par with the inimitable Carl Sagan, dare I say.

A year or so ago I've read The Blind Watchmaker by Dawkins (which, I gather, touches the same ideas from The Selfish Gene). He writes extremely poignantly about "cumulative selection", the "immortal gene", "adaptive complexity" (the particular property of living things that is replicable only by Darwinian selection) and many other riveting topics. Not to mention lots of fun and meaningful analogies related to various computer-related concepts (if you enjoy that sort of thing) and to the natural world, to explain DNA and related ideas (refer to "The Power of Archives" chapter). Also, have a gander at Science in the Soul, also by Dawkins, a collection of essays; FWIW, very much recommend it. Some fine writing in there.

(Note to self: Resume reading On the Origin of Species again.)

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