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Books and lectures don't work

andymatuschak.org

21–30 of 162 posts

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#21

I used to believe this too until I was taught how to read a book, a skill that unfortunately is taken for granted and hasn’t made its way into curriculums. Reading “thinking fast thinking slow” should not take 8-9 hours... it could easily take 50 (after all, it represents many years and thousands of hours of work by the preeminent thinker on the subject). Scholars have spent a lifetime studying the Inferno. I am typi…

What if the kid is listening to white noise to block out the sound of the coffee shop? Or the audiobook?

As long as its not vocal it should not interfere with his ability to read and process information of said reading.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#22
I find this fascinating. Maybe it's because I can read books, have been doing that since I was 4, and it never crossed my mind that my books weren't working. Apparently something must have happened with education or attention spans in the last 20 years, as pretty much all my peers could read books and had similar feelings about them as well before that.

Sort of a PEBCAK issue. I can't use this resource (that people have been using and praising profusely since the Gutenberg revolution of the 15th century until circa 1994), hence this resource is broken.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#23
> It’s about explanatory non-fiction like the books I mentioned above, which aim to convey detailed knowledge.

Source (for the last half of that sentence)?

I don't think writers like Richard Dawkins or Nassim Nicholas Taleb write books "to convey detailed knowledge". I read books like this primarily because I enjoy them, but also to broaden the mind. I'm not expecting to be tested on my understanding of the content!

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#24
post #11

Counterpoint: books work really well as evidenced by all of human development?

Exactly!

And I'd argue that our attention span has been shrinking ever since the scroll arrived with web. We tire out sooner when we are forced to track lines that are always moving (animating vertically)… to the effect that more than half [1] the readers don't scroll at all.

Whereas with physical book transitions (page turn) happen only 'in between', line tracking is much easier and we don't have to turn the page until ready to consume the next chop of text.

[1] https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/how-people-read-online-...

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#25

I used to believe this too until I was taught how to read a book, a skill that unfortunately is taken for granted and hasn’t made its way into curriculums. Reading “thinking fast thinking slow” should not take 8-9 hours... it could easily take 50 (after all, it represents many years and thousands of hours of work by the preeminent thinker on the subject). Scholars have spent a lifetime studying the Inferno. I am typi…

I disagree with you. People have very different styles when it comes to absorbing information. I fully understand why that kid would choose to listen to music instead of random coffee-shop noises. Music it's repetitive and easy to ignore whereas environmental noises might be more distracting. I often find myself able to concentrate easier with music than with random sounds or even silence in some cases. Silence makes my mind wander and stray away from what I'm trying to pay attention to.

I've also read Adler's "How to Read a Book" and I don't think it's as useful as you make it out to be. Annotating is good but nowadays you can take notes easily on your phone which I found myself doing for each book I read/listen to. Also one of the advice you find in your example is how truly reading a book means reading it more than once. He mentions that the first read should be superficial and fast in order to prepare you for the second, more thorough read.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the kid is listening to white noise to block out the sound of the coffee shop? Or the audiobook?

As long as its not vocal it should not interfere with his ability to read and process information of said reading.

That’s incorrect, any kind of stimulus takes away some attention.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#27

I used to believe this too until I was taught how to read a book, a skill that unfortunately is taken for granted and hasn’t made its way into curriculums. Reading “thinking fast thinking slow” should not take 8-9 hours... it could easily take 50 (after all, it represents many years and thousands of hours of work by the preeminent thinker on the subject). Scholars have spent a lifetime studying the Inferno. I am typi…

[deleted]

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#28
Pseudo-intellectual clickbait. I hate that I know this will get bazillion upvotes here simply because of phrases like "carefully-considered cognitive model at their foundation".

> but the medium does have an implicit model

No, it does not. There is no such thing as universal cognitive model "for books". Every writer has his own. That's why there are so many different structures and styles of presentation. That's why some books are much easier to absorb than others.

Fuck, I don't write books (yet), just articles, and there are tons of different ways to handle this "mental modeling" even for short texts. It's not even always a good thing to pay too much attention to such models. Most writing is not propaganda where the only point is to imprint someone's brain with the desired information and opinions. It's a conversation. Accurately capturing your own mental model of the subject is usually far more valuable than overthinking the mental model of the reader - because you will have many different readers and (unless you're doing propaganda/marketing) you don't want to create something that appeals to a kind of faceless "average consumer".

The fact that modern books (even educational non-fiction) are a "lossy format" is usually by design, even if people don't think about it too much. It is not always the case and it was not always the case. For example, religious texts were designed to be "lossless". Epic poems were designed to be lossless as a verbal form and that continued to shape them when they were captured in writing. You can make a pretty good argument that deliberately lossy writing was a far more recent invention than writing in general.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#29
> Instead, I propose: we don’t necessarily have to make books work. We can make new forms instead. This doesn’t have to mean abandoning narrative prose; it doesn’t even necessarily mean abandoning paper—rather, we can free our thinking by abandoning our preconceptions of what a book is. Maybe once we’ve done all this, we’ll have arrived at something which does indeed look much like a book. We’ll have found a gentle path around the back of that intimidating slope. Or maybe we’ll end up in different terrain altogether.

This sounds really intriguing.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#30
Try only learning things with books for 4 months and then tell me it doesn't work.

I tend to notice that learning from books get a lot harder if I allow my brain to be flooded with whatever chemicals are released when I watch youtube or game of thrones. If I avoid those for a while, and avoid sugar etc, and if I work out every day and get enough nutrients etc, then my ability to learn via books is no trouble at all.

Sounds like I'm telling you to just eat your vegetables, to do what your parental archetype is already screaming in the back of your head to do, and hence might you feel like not doing it in rebellion, but it's totally true based on my experience. I used to be the biggest youtube nerd/"I only learn with video"-type around. But now I only learn via books and I feel a lot healthier as a consequence. I finally feel like my brain is functioning like it's supposed to.

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