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IT Runs on Java 8

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Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#481

Post by vips7L »

acomjean wrote: post #260
ksec wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. AOT used to be bag of hurt with GCJ ( I know I could use Excelsior, not sure if it was free in my time though ), but now even that will be an supported option from Graal. Java the languages still isn't pretty, but it has been much improved. OpenJDK is GPL and apart form the trademark ( ? )…

I like java. Java 8 streams are particularly interesting. Its fast too. I took a hadoop class (which taught java 8 and ironically discouraged hadoop use excepting exceptional cases..). The hardest part that everyone struggled with was getting a Java environment up and running. Gradle, maven, ant... You almost need and IDE. Its almost like they don't want people using it. I stopped when I didn't have too. Plus the acr…

How is this any different than python or javascript? NPM, Babel, Webpack, TSC, PIP, VENV, PyPy, CPython, etc. They all have their learning curves and if you weren't in the ecosystem you wouldn't know what they meant.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#482

Post by vips7L »

tstrimple wrote: post #410
stevetodd wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny, I feel the same way about web development right now.

Except web development is almost all bootstrapped from a simple npm library these days. You generally npm install and you've got all your dependencies whether it's Angular, Vue, React or pretty much any modern web frameworks. The time for a new developer to get the tooling out of the way and start looking at code is dramatically shorter for web apps than Java in my experience.

It seems like you just don't know how to properly use maven. In my experience it is always as simple as mvn {build, compile, test, package, deploy}.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#483

Post by lllr_finger »

speedplane wrote: post #433
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern Java micro-services in contrast are really fast to develop. This attitude is a bit surprising to me. The main point of micro-services is that they address a complexity problem when dealing with large organizations. That is, they allow a large organization to break into small teams that can work (relatively) independently so each team can iterate faster. However, microservices definitely make a host of issues…

> microservices definitely make a host of issues harder ... I agree with all the issues you've stated, but I'd like to add one more. Microservices arguably make it much easier to build systems with circulate dependencies leading to weird race conditions and deadlocks. Consider two units of code A and B. If implemented as classes, modules, or libraries, it's relatively easy to spot and prevent A calling into B which i…

There are few options, but what do you need beside a graph data structure?

We had a pipeline consisting of microservices and Kafka topics. Simple if/then logic quickly became problematic so I implemented our flow control as a directed acyclic graph, and it helped tremendously.

It's also easy to render your graph out with any number of visualization tools to quickly understand/validate work flows.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#484

Post by Sindisil »

jscholes wrote: post #367
syjer wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the approach done in https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/loom/Main is better than the async/await infrastructure.

Well, other than the fact that it only supports Linux and MacOS.

Is that true? The build instructions are for a Posix-like evironment, but I haven't actually looked to see if the actual implementation supports Windows yet.

As someone who runs Windows and Linux about equally, in differing proportions over time, I do find it disappointing that some (b)leading edge JVM and Java features don't support Windows yet.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#485

Post by Merad »

jum4 wrote: post #185

I have seen some Excel files from end users which grows into a whole application. The users wanted more functionalty and didn't get through all the management levels to reach someone from corporate IT and just start doing it by themselve with the tools they know and develop from Excel to Macros to VBA to VBA with SQL Database (because they have a standard process in the company to request a new SQL Database and the d…

I worked for a few years in enterprise app development at a Fortune 500, and our bread and butter (probably 75% of new code written) was making replacements for people's homegrown "apps" build on top of Excel or Access that had grown so large that they needed a real SQL back end.

I say this not to disparage those apps (though they were often horrifying to us as devs) but to point out that huge portions of your average large business probably run on stuff like that.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#486

Post by wildermuthn »

scarface74 wrote: post #412
wildermuthn wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points here. Which is why HN is oriented toward startups with Tier 1 engineers. PG and his cofounders invented the web app, using a combination of old tech (lisp) and new (the internet). There are plenty of other forums and sites to read about conventional tech. HN is where I find the bleeding edge. 90% of it is just fascinating. But the other 10% offer tantalizing possibilities for making something novel, which…

Hacker News ranks at #959 in the US. It didn’t get that rank from just being geared toward startups with Tier 1 engineers. Look on the front page right now and see how many stories are about startups. That didn’t change in the last five years. It’s always been about technology in general. HN’s front page 10 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2009-05-10 HN’s front page 5 years ago https://news.ycombinat…

We’re both making points based off anecdotal experience, so who knows. I have been a reader for the last 7 or 8 years, but my experience is just one subjective data-point.

Having said that, the most apparent change to me is in the tone and substance of the comments rather than the front page. And it isn’t a huge change. Just noticeable for me.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#487

Post by finndark »

themodelplumber wrote: post #415
dcole2929 wrote: post #49

In the majority of companies it's simply not possible to operate on the bleeding edge the way HN articles would have you believe you should. Besides the obvious issues around the value of rewriting stable legacy systems on new platforms, there are also man power issues. You need tier 1 developers to live on the bleeding edge because any problem that comes up (and they will come up) largely requires you to solve it yo…

Really good points. IMO the web-surfing crowd's taste for news (as opposed to their capability when it comes to work) is deceiving. Their excitement for prospective high-leverage information creates a demand that biases community sites like HN and Reddit toward novelty, and the result is this massive FOMO loop: "Read it, remember to try it, forget to try it, aw damn a new thing already came out and it's better becaus…

themodelplumber says> "And this guy was a _master_ at a certain language starting with the letter P...

Prolog?

What a shame he couldn't use his best language! It has such nice web frameworks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages#...

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#488

Post by wildermuthn »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #466
GordonS wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good example of this is static typing - shat on for years by HN, and now, all of a sudden it's the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Yeah, but I think the kind of static typing that was 'shat on' for years is not the same as the one being praised today. The shat on one is the old Java, verbose, obtrusive style. The newly praised one is Haskell-style, type inferred, expressive... Now you could say that's not new, BUT what is new is marrying ML style type system to languages whose other concepts devs are largely familiar with and packaging it the ri…

These are the kind of comments that make HN so special: knowledgeable and insightful, due to deep experience with the past and critical understanding of the present. It isn’t just a rush to what is shiny and new, but is capable of identifying what is novel and valuable, and is articulate enough to explain why.

Normally my comment would be an unnecessary back-slapping, but since the conversation veered this way, I think it is appropriate to call out your comment as something that represents the spirit that makes HN unique and wonderful.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#489

Post by MaxBarraclough »

pron wrote: post #478
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very neat. So it preserves the virtues of .Net's task-based concurrency, but is even less intrusive regarding the necessary code-changes to existing synchronous code. Does it impact things from the perspective of the JNI programmer? > OpenJDK is the name of the Java implementation developed by Oracle (Oracle JDK is a build of OpenJDK under a commercial license). Ah, of course. I'd missed that. > there are non-Oracle-…

> but is even less intrusive regarding the necessary code-changes to existing synchronous code. Yes. All existing blocking IO code will become automatically fiber-blocking rather than kernel-thread-blocking, except where there are OS issues (file IO; Go has the same problem). Fibers and threads may end up using the same API, as they're just two implementations of the same abstraction. > Does it impact things from the…

> a fiber that tries to block inside a native call, i.e., when there is a native frame on the fiber's stack, will be "pinned" and block the underlying kernel thread.

Doesn't this boil down to the native function blocking the thread?

How about the C API/ABI of JNI? Will there be additions there for better supporting concurrency (i.e. not simply blocking)? Or can that be handled today, with something akin to callbacks?

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#490

Post by jayd16 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #214
lenkite wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The start-up code written in modern Java would similarly taken two months to develop and maintainable by an intern. The problem in enterprise tech like you found is that one is forced to use certain, non-productive old frameworks filled with legacy, over-engineered bloat. Modern Java micro-services in contrast are really fast to develop. Green field Java projects where one can make personal choices of lean technology…

> Modern Java micro-services in contrast are really fast to develop. This attitude is a bit surprising to me. The main point of micro-services is that they address a complexity problem when dealing with large organizations. That is, they allow a large organization to break into small teams that can work (relatively) independently so each team can iterate faster. However, microservices definitely make a host of issues…

Unlike the others, I'm going to disagree with what you've said. If you have a mono-repo set up you can develop like it's a monolith but with the added benefit that you don't have deploy the whole macro-service at once.

I think people are just spinning up a bunch of unorganized services and calling them micro and then complaining about it.

If you're on a small team that can build a clean monolith, the work to make them microservices is imo pretty trivial.

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