Don Norman on how design fails older consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#111

Post by ghaff » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #110

altitudinous wrote: post #61

I'm 51 and work in tech. I now understand the nuances in this article. I'll probably understand them better as time goes on. Young readers probably skimmed over the bits about floaters in the eyes. Everyone older than 50 gets it. Young readers probably skimmed over the bit about frequency definition, captions etc. Everyone older than 50 gets it. I don't get the bit with walking sticks yet, but I am not there yet. But…

Is it just me, or do TVs have the WORST user experience of all tech? Somehow, they can get away with it. I've always wanted a consumer electronics brand that was known specifically for usability. For commodity tech, like TVs, radios, monitors, music, I don't want the most impressive specs -- I want a brand that means "we will be easier to use than the other brands". Choosing between Panasonic, Sony, LG, etc etc.. it'…

I honestly don't find TVs that hard to use--but then I don't try to use "Smart TV" features, which are indeed pretty bad across the board. I mostly just use a Chromecast--a much underappreciated device--and my tablet or laptop. Hopefully Google doesn't discontinue it when they get bored in a year or two.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#112

Post by ghaff » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

logicprog wrote: post #107

mark_l_watson wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t down vote you, but you really misunderstand old people. As I mentioned in another comment, my 97 year old Dad (almost 98!) uses computers and he has taught himself 3D animation, has started to write scripts, makes little movies blending real video and video with CGI added, and helps make biography documentaries for his friends’ families. He also goes out three or four nights a week to dinner, plays, movies,…

Very awesome story. But doesn't this prove the GP's point then? Not all old people are incapable of figuring things out --by your anecdote-- and the GP's point is that the ones that are, have just lost their patience and perseverance for that stuff, not that they actually are incapable of finding a menu item because they're old now. And things requiring a bit of patience isn't discrimination, it's just that some thin…

Well, there are things that require patience and perseverance because they're complex. And they're things that require patience and perseverance because they're designed poorly. It seems to me perfectly rational to come to the realization with age that life really is too short to put up with poorly-designed devices and services. There are perhaps not enough devices and services that are well-designed but they're out there.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#113

Post by a3n » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #33

The trend towards lack of physical controls in cars is absolutely bonkers. I'm gobsmacked anyone thinks the Tesla Model 3 is good design. Same with desk phones. Anyone who deals with customers at a counter doesn't have time to constantly look at a touch screen for buttons that may or may not be there. Nothing like chucking muscle memory out the window in the name of aesthetics :p

Truck driver. Our in-truck communications/logging/gps terminals at this company are old-ish Qualcomm devices. About 1/3 of the controls are physical buttons, the rest are touch screen. Some screen output is duplicated with audio.

The newer devices that I've seen are all touch screen and I dread that day. I'd rather reach over with muscle memory and press a physical button, while looking at something else like THE F-ing ROAD!

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#114

Post by a3n » Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:02 PM UTC

Well, they're old. They're difficult and boring to talk to. Besides, they aren't going to buy enough of our stuff now or in the future. They aren't the long-term loyal customers we're trying to cultivate, because they're - ahem - old.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#115

Post by ghaff » Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #96

jungletime wrote: post #92

A glaring example of this is the Canada Revenue Agency. It asks 5 different security questions, you need to type in the answer to, before you can set up account. The problems I observed my elderly father having is: 1) The website times out way too soon. Before my father could type up three answers it timed out. Each time he has to start from scratch. 2) An answer to security a question, like "who was your first teach…

I'm not even old and I hate security questions like this. I'll never forget the name of my best friend in 2nd grade, but I will forget whether I input his name as Billy Bob, Billy, William, William Robert, etc.

I'd say in a typical list of security questions I would consistently answer maybe a third of them (and those are mostly ones that a determined scammer could find the answers to). And that's assuming that the service is forgiving in terms of abbreviations, spelling variants, the presence of words like Road, etc.

The worst I saw recently was a mandatory security question about "What was the first city you visited?" The answer was multiple choice with about 6 city names.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#116

Post by pnathan » Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

altitudinous wrote: post #61

I'm 51 and work in tech. I now understand the nuances in this article. I'll probably understand them better as time goes on. Young readers probably skimmed over the bits about floaters in the eyes. Everyone older than 50 gets it. Young readers probably skimmed over the bit about frequency definition, captions etc. Everyone older than 50 gets it. I don't get the bit with walking sticks yet, but I am not there yet. But…

> Ageism is embedded in our society, whose best attempt at inclusion and diversity is based on colour of skin and gender. I don't think it will change, it has probably been the same for thousands of years.

Typically, societies are gerontocracies; the aged run the show. Sometimes it's formalized, usually it's not. It's only in the modern Western time and place that we have begun to prioritize youth. Even in the USA, the country which is famed for idolizing youth, the old are in power and are the primary voters.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerontocracy

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#117

Post by emiliobumachar » Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #110

altitudinous wrote: post #61

I'm 51 and work in tech. I now understand the nuances in this article. I'll probably understand them better as time goes on. Young readers probably skimmed over the bits about floaters in the eyes. Everyone older than 50 gets it. Young readers probably skimmed over the bit about frequency definition, captions etc. Everyone older than 50 gets it. I don't get the bit with walking sticks yet, but I am not there yet. But…

Is it just me, or do TVs have the WORST user experience of all tech? Somehow, they can get away with it. I've always wanted a consumer electronics brand that was known specifically for usability. For commodity tech, like TVs, radios, monitors, music, I don't want the most impressive specs -- I want a brand that means "we will be easier to use than the other brands". Choosing between Panasonic, Sony, LG, etc etc.. it'…

Isn't Apple that brand? I don't use their products much, but my impression is that they have that reputation.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#118

Post by ghaff » Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #97

rwmj wrote: post #42

Don Norman's book "The Design of Everyday Things" is a classic and very relevant today: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Design-Everyday-Things-MIT-Press/dp...

I've read this book three or four times and it's kind of crazy he was at Apple as an executive and had no lasting impact, iOS is now full of hidden gestures/features with low discoverability/intuitiveness. Nobody there with the power to make decisions agrees with the basic premise of this book.

On the other hand, Donald Norman also came to embrace (and somewhat found) the idea of User Experience design. He pretty much admitted that his earlier focus on design was too narrow. And I'd argue that Apple very much likewise broadened their focus to the entire user experience.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#119

Post by trophycase » Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #33

The trend towards lack of physical controls in cars is absolutely bonkers. I'm gobsmacked anyone thinks the Tesla Model 3 is good design. Same with desk phones. Anyone who deals with customers at a counter doesn't have time to constantly look at a touch screen for buttons that may or may not be there. Nothing like chucking muscle memory out the window in the name of aesthetics :p

It's also very much a part of the hardware as a service paradigm. Control the interface, control the device. If my Tesla has a touch screen push button start, it is trivial to disallow me to drive until I update the car software and add in some tracking "features" or what have you.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#120

Post by sixQuarks » Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #33

The trend towards lack of physical controls in cars is absolutely bonkers. I'm gobsmacked anyone thinks the Tesla Model 3 is good design. Same with desk phones. Anyone who deals with customers at a counter doesn't have time to constantly look at a touch screen for buttons that may or may not be there. Nothing like chucking muscle memory out the window in the name of aesthetics :p

I own a Model 3 and I agree the interface for controlling simple/common actions such as wiper blades and temperature adjustments is terrible and dangerous. I often ask myself how older drivers can deal with it.

However, I do think the model 3 interface was heavily influenced by their self-driving ambitions. The technology hasn't caught up to the design yet, and it's a bit dangerous.