Don Norman on how design fails older consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#101

Post by save_ferris » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

ssivark wrote: post #31

save_ferris wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dismal accessibility adoption on the web is horrendous, but working for a company that has to deliver accessible web apps to comply with Federal law has really opened my eyes to how terrible to ecosystem of accessibility is. My team spends about a quarter of our time working strictly on accessibility, and we find ourselves straying from the beaten path often in order to accommodate a specific screenreader/OS comb…

Since website frameworks like Bootstrap are a thing, would it make sense to implement accessibility guidelines at that level, so that designers/people who don't know are encouraged to use sane defaults? Or is it too content/layout specific? Eg: I might like to roll my own static blog, but I don't know how to ensure that it is accessible.

I think making frameworks like bootstrap accessible-by-default is a great idea, but it won't be catch-all solution. A11y needs to be a conscious part of the design/development process, just like security.

One of the things we've learned is that much of the complex, dynamic UI things one can do with frameworks like React/Angular is really, really, really hard and frustrating to make fully accessible because people never design React components that are easy to use with a keyboard.

We live in this world where the capabilities of UIs for enabled people continue to grow at the cost of accessibility for the disabled. With the shift towards frontend frameworks, the problem needs to be addressed at the markup level IMO.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#102

Post by asark » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

ssivark wrote: post #5

I speculate whether this observation indicates that most of the chatter around "design" is signaling focused on appearing hip/trendy -- largely a branding effort overlaid on top of company goals, rather than an effort to think through actual user needs from the ground up. That would explain why so much of the focus is on fads.

It's more than that—it's peacock feathers. You do it to signal you have money to burn looking "modern". You'll even see people on HN complain that a site looks "old", sometimes—not bad, just old. Keeping up with trends signals you're doing well enough to keep your site from appearing old, so looking maintained and up-to-date.

I think it's related to how chain stores & restaurants look so much more polished these days, and completely re-design their logo and colors (repainting whole buildings) every few years. They didn't used to do that, and everything generally looked a lot less "slick" than it does now. All I can figure is a couple of them started doing it to differentiate themselves from smaller chains and mom-n-pop stores (that couldn't afford that crap) and the rest started doing it so they didn't look left behind. Such a waste.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#103

Post by wereHamster » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:13 PM UTC

nilram wrote: post #29

My partner's mom, age 94, got new hearing aids and the app that can control them (adjust focus on front/side/back, high/low/midrange, etc), runs only on iOS. We got her an iPad mini and I set it up so she can (A) read the Washington Post, (B) read a poetry app, (C) control her hearing aids, and (D) not much else (so as not to be confusing). Much to my surprise, the hearing aid app does not adjust it's font size per t…

Most likely the app was written by a third-party contractor who didn't know much about who the users are, they only received the requirements (app must do X and Y) and delivered.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#104

Post by black6 » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:13 PM UTC

> As a result, even a manual is not enough: all the arbitrary gestures that control tablets, phones, and computers have to be memorized. Everything has to be memorized.

If they’re documented at all. I only discovered the difference in iOS between a “long press” and “hard press” on the touchscreen by accident. The extra useability thrilled me, but I wish the feature were better documented.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#105

Post by jessriedel » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

jungletime wrote: post #92

A glaring example of this is the Canada Revenue Agency. It asks 5 different security questions, you need to type in the answer to, before you can set up account. The problems I observed my elderly father having is: 1) The website times out way too soon. Before my father could type up three answers it timed out. Each time he has to start from scratch. 2) An answer to security a question, like "who was your first teach…

The CRA website has had bad problems that go way beyond accessibility. I've experienced inscrutable instructions, pages that contradict each other, and security procedures that get stuck in infinite loops.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#106

Post by billyjobob » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

goldenkey wrote: post #63

Isn't it moreso that old people are daft and impatient? I am nearly 30 and can figure out systems, both new and old, and find that patience and faith is vitally important. I notice my parents don't even bother to explore the menus or dropdowns or well..much of anything, before they demand to be helped. It's gonna be very hard to sell me on menus being ageist. I hope you can read my frustration..

Most young people are also daft and impatient. There was one golden generation, say born in the 70s and 80s, who grew up with tech that encouraged tinkering and learning. Anyone older or younger than this didn’t get the opportunity.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#107

Post by logicprog » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #81

goldenkey wrote: post #63

Isn't it moreso that old people are daft and impatient? I am nearly 30 and can figure out systems, both new and old, and find that patience and faith is vitally important. I notice my parents don't even bother to explore the menus or dropdowns or well..much of anything, before they demand to be helped. It's gonna be very hard to sell me on menus being ageist. I hope you can read my frustration..

I didn’t down vote you, but you really misunderstand old people. As I mentioned in another comment, my 97 year old Dad (almost 98!) uses computers and he has taught himself 3D animation, has started to write scripts, makes little movies blending real video and video with CGI added, and helps make biography documentaries for his friends’ families. He also goes out three or four nights a week to dinner, plays, movies,…

Very awesome story. But doesn't this prove the GP's point then? Not all old people are incapable of figuring things out --by your anecdote-- and the GP's point is that the ones that are, have just lost their patience and perseverance for that stuff, not that they actually are incapable of finding a menu item because they're old now. And things requiring a bit of patience isn't discrimination, it's just that some things require patience. There are young people that act like this too, where they refuse to even look through menus for a bit or try different buttons, and we don't say computers are discriminatory against young people?

Granted we should most definitely still have accessibility features. Not having captions or bigger font options is pretty discriminatory.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#108

Post by logicprog » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

Moru wrote: post #98

tty2300 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And should last longer, make it easier to clean and not get gunk stuck in it causing it to jam up.

And make the driver look at a screen to adjust temperature / fan or whatever.

I already have to look at the knobs in my car to see what I'm doing with them (or even find them in the first place). Is this true for anyone else? I'm reading this thread totally unable to understand what we are arguing about haha.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#109

Post by dr_dshiv » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

altitudinous wrote: post #67

goldenkey wrote: post #63

Isn't it moreso that old people are daft and impatient? I am nearly 30 and can figure out systems, both new and old, and find that patience and faith is vitally important. I notice my parents don't even bother to explore the menus or dropdowns or well..much of anything, before they demand to be helped. It's gonna be very hard to sell me on menus being ageist. I hope you can read my frustration..

I rest my case. You should be asking yourself why, do you see you don't understand their behaviour? Why do they behave differently in menus to you, don't condemn them because they do behave differently to you.

At the same time, and without condemnation, older people CAN learn to be more playful/exploratory and patient with tech. Yes, tech can and should be designed better. But if there were one or two tips that could be disseminated, to old and young (most youth are not tech savvy, actually): 1. If you can't seem to figure it out, you aren't alone (probably poor design) 2. Willingness to calmly "play around" and explore menus/options/buttons is THE KEY to getting almost anything to work

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#110

Post by dr_dshiv » Sat, May 11, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

altitudinous wrote: post #61

I'm 51 and work in tech. I now understand the nuances in this article. I'll probably understand them better as time goes on. Young readers probably skimmed over the bits about floaters in the eyes. Everyone older than 50 gets it. Young readers probably skimmed over the bit about frequency definition, captions etc. Everyone older than 50 gets it. I don't get the bit with walking sticks yet, but I am not there yet. But…

Is it just me, or do TVs have the WORST user experience of all tech? Somehow, they can get away with it.

I've always wanted a consumer electronics brand that was known specifically for usability. For commodity tech, like TVs, radios, monitors, music, I don't want the most impressive specs -- I want a brand that means "we will be easier to use than the other brands".

Choosing between Panasonic, Sony, LG, etc etc.. it's all meaningless. Give me a BRAND that says "easy-to-use".