Don Norman on how design fails older consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#71

Post by Nokinside » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

altitudinous wrote: post #61

I'm 51 and work in tech. I now understand the nuances in this article. I'll probably understand them better as time goes on. Young readers probably skimmed over the bits about floaters in the eyes. Everyone older than 50 gets it. Young readers probably skimmed over the bit about frequency definition, captions etc. Everyone older than 50 gets it. I don't get the bit with walking sticks yet, but I am not there yet. But…

Fully agree.

There is also the 'no bullshit' attitude that starts to emerge when you turn 40. You want product to do a thing. Not to engage you in any way. You either already have a life or you know you will never have one.

Many older people have money and they are willing to spend it if does a thing and it's easy to get.

If Amazon would buy Paul Graham's old Viaweb code, it would need just little updating to become a tool that generates killer UI's for the aging population in the developing world. Plain html5 with commons sense and good defaults with tiniest amount of javascript is all you need for a well functioning web service. Incidentally Hacker News is not far from this ideal.

This is what good news site looks like: http://lite.cnn.com/en

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#72

Post by namibj » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

ssivark wrote: post #31

save_ferris wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dismal accessibility adoption on the web is horrendous, but working for a company that has to deliver accessible web apps to comply with Federal law has really opened my eyes to how terrible to ecosystem of accessibility is. My team spends about a quarter of our time working strictly on accessibility, and we find ourselves straying from the beaten path often in order to accommodate a specific screenreader/OS comb…

Since website frameworks like Bootstrap are a thing, would it make sense to implement accessibility guidelines at that level, so that designers/people who don't know are encouraged to use sane defaults? Or is it too content/layout specific? Eg: I might like to roll my own static blog, but I don't know how to ensure that it is accessible.

Stick to HTML for most. If it has a sane layout when you disable JS, CSS and images, you should be fine.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#73

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:26 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #6

torstenvl wrote: post #3

Irony is my favorite form of humor. This is how the article shows up for me: https://ibb.co/6XqtQGs

That’s horrible. Let me recommend 1BlockerX: https://ibb.co/yNQ4T08 Or use Safari reader mode. Or both.

I wouldn’t recommend 1Blocker. I had it and was disappointed at how they rarely (if ever?) update their filter lists (they’re also not using the standard lists like EasyList).

AdGuard Pro is much better and supports standard lists like EasyList and Fanboy’s lists, along with region-specific lists and DNS-based blocking (so blocks ads/cancer in non-browser contexts too).

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#74

Post by Nokinside » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:26 AM UTC

goldenkey wrote: post #63

Isn't it moreso that old people are daft and impatient? I am nearly 30 and can figure out systems, both new and old, and find that patience and faith is vitally important. I notice my parents don't even bother to explore the menus or dropdowns or well..much of anything, before they demand to be helped. It's gonna be very hard to sell me on menus being ageist. I hope you can read my frustration..

This is just you being unable to understand what was said, because you have no context to understand. I'm a middle-aged tech nerd and I tell you, it's not what you think it is. This should surprise you and make you curious, not to make you refuse to accept the possibility that you are wrong.

BTW. More and more studies show that young generations are not magically learning to use IT because they have grown up with it. Digital illiteracy grows even among the young. They learn to use the minimum functionality in apps they use daily, but they have relatively little edge over old people when they are put in front of spreadsheet program, or anything specialized. You can see the apparent impatience and signs of learned helplessness in them too.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#75

Post by fhars » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:30 AM UTC

louprado wrote: post #14

Regarding a comment the author made in passing: For the increasing number of people who have cataract surgery, the eye’s lenses have ben replaced with plastic, which usually have a fixed focus. (Artificial lenses that can be focused are under development.) My dad recently had cataract surgery and I just assumed he was getting would be a deformable lens that would give him the ability to focus again. Does anyone know…

The lens is suspended by a ring of fibres about 1-2μm thick from the ciliar muscle. Getting accommodation to work with a synthetic lens would require a substitute suspension mechanism to attach the lens to the muscle. And it would probably be useful if it could be implanted without temporarily removing the front or the eye including the iris.

Compare that to a small cut to the side of the eye to extract the old lens and inject a new one that is held in place mechanically.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#76

Post by fhars » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:32 AM UTC

beautifulfreak wrote: post #25

all2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone know why it is so hard to develop such a lens ? As far as medical breakthroughs it seems like low hanging fruit ... Not in medicine or medical research, so great grains of salt required. 1) immune rejection 2) non-degradable 3) same modulus of elasticity as a biological lens (and maintains elasticity) 4) (relatively) cheap source materials 5) (relatively) cheap manufacture 6) survive all testing; up to…

There's a relevant article on the HN front page now. https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2019-gore-artificial-corn...

No, that‘s about cornea replacements and is irrelevant for the current discussion.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#77

Post by xg15 » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:36 AM UTC

I fear the effects of this are amplified by the current unfortunate trend of using dark pattern and strategic use of friction to steer the user into desired directions.

Congrats, your gray-on-white "decline" button that looks like a link is probably annoying for young and able-bodied users but it may be a serious obstacle for the others.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#78

Post by wvh » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:45 AM UTC

goldenkey wrote: post #63

Isn't it moreso that old people are daft and impatient? I am nearly 30 and can figure out systems, both new and old, and find that patience and faith is vitally important. I notice my parents don't even bother to explore the menus or dropdowns or well..much of anything, before they demand to be helped. It's gonna be very hard to sell me on menus being ageist. I hope you can read my frustration..

As a coder, service architect and security person for many years, I don’t mind when things get very complex.

I’m also a guitar player. When I play music, I want an amplifier with a few simple hardware knobs and not a digital gadget with a zillion nested menu options.

Basic functionality should be up front and clear, so people can get on with the thing they’re focusing on without getting hopelessly distracted. It is here that many digital interfaces fail, and not just for old people only.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#79

Post by mark_l_watson » Sat, May 11, 2019, 11:50 AM UTC

I like his criticism of difficulty in iPhone screen navigation, My Dad is 97 and has to carry a tiny pointing device to get full use from his phone. He is much better using his iPad, but neither small device is natural for him like using his Mac Desktop Pro or his iMac. When using his computers, the full size keyboards and wireless mice work really well for him. Norman’s suggestions for iPhone navigation would help my Dad a lot.

Re: Don Norman on how design fails older consumers

#80

Post by wlesieutre » Sat, May 11, 2019, 12:01 PM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #35

m463 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I set triple-click on my iphone to magnifier. Settings -> General -> Accessibility -> Magnifier -> On Settings -> General -> Accessibility -> Accessibility Shortcut -> Magnifier (of course those settings are somewhat inaccessi... well you know...)

Another similar trick: you can use the zoom feature to dim the screen below the normal threshold. Set the zoom level to zero and then set the zoom filter to low light. I use this as my triple click, and it's great for reading in absolute dark without ruining your night vision.

There's a "reduce white point" accessibility option specifically for this if you want finer control over how dim it goes. I use it if I ever need to look at my phone with a migraine.