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IT Runs on Java 8

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Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#321

Post by pron »

endymi0n wrote: post #282
tomohawk wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a lot of power to push something that large. A lot of brain power to grock the ecosystem. Outside of the Java bubble, the view is quite a bit different. All that sophistication looks like a wasted effort. Take something as simple as admining the garbage collector. Java has a big selection of GCs, and each has their bunch of knobs for tuning. And you have to pay attention to that stuff. After working with Go…

Funnily enough, Go just chose to solve the problem the other way around: While JVM tackled GC with the code equivalent of lightsaber-equipped drones, Go‘s GC is almost embarrassingly simple in comparison (although it‘s pretty decent by now). The major difference is that the whole Go language and stdlib is simply written around patterns that avoid allocations almost magically. The simplicity of the Reader and Writer c…

I agree it's impressive that Go manages to be not all that much slower than Java while having a much simpler runtime, but much of the simplicity is gained from lacking features that are very important in many cases of "serious software" like deep low-overhead continuous profiling and ubiquitous dynamic linking.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#322

Post by bgorman »

sl1ck731 wrote: post #307
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

I was never super into Java development. I started working in 2014 and was introduced to Weblogic, Jenkins, huge Maven POMs and all the rest, then went into Cloud consulting. When I sit down to do anything I get so wrapped up in all the stuff that comes along with Java and feel like I have to use some huge IDE like Eclipse (I hate) or IntelliJ (I If I could just write code and have a simple package manager like NPM o…

The answer you are looking for is called "Clojure".

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#323

Post by pdpi »

sl1ck731 wrote: post #307
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

I was never super into Java development. I started working in 2014 and was introduced to Weblogic, Jenkins, huge Maven POMs and all the rest, then went into Cloud consulting. When I sit down to do anything I get so wrapped up in all the stuff that comes along with Java and feel like I have to use some huge IDE like Eclipse (I hate) or IntelliJ (I If I could just write code and have a simple package manager like NPM o…

Java-the-language is a fairly crummy thing to work with, it’s Java-the-ecosystem that’s genuinely good — the JVM, the tooling, etc etc. The quality of IDEs available is definitely a very large component of that. Doing Java on a lightweight editor seems like a way to pay the price without reaping the benefits.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#324

Post by [deleted] »

dlandis wrote: post #254
BoyRobot777 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should checkout new RedHat framework - [Quarkus]( https://quarkus.io/ ). This is a framework which leverages Graal to create native images. Those images are very small and optimized. For example one of Quarkus developers showcase the size of native image, spoilers - it's [19MB]( https://youtu.be/BcPLbhC9KAA?t=103 ). It takes 0,004s to start. In [this]( https://youtu.be/7G_r1iyrn2c?t=3104 ) session, RedHat develop…

Looks very interesting although unfortunate they went with Maven over Gradle.

[deleted]

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#325

Post by pron »

alfalfasprout wrote: post #297
ksec wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. AOT used to be bag of hurt with GCJ ( I know I could use Excelsior, not sure if it was free in my time though ), but now even that will be an supported option from Graal. Java the languages still isn't pretty, but it has been much improved. OpenJDK is GPL and apart form the trademark ( ? )…

Support for native code is very bad. The JNI is a pain to use and very slow, IPC is often faster. High performance numerical code often suffers because of poor vectorization. Not to mention tuning the JVM is often needed for critical tasks. Modern GC'd languages like Go have much better memory footprints and the penalty of fast numerical code is much smaller.

Panama (https://openjdk.java.net/projects/panama/) will be replacing JNI very soon, and I don't think you're correct about vectorization. While I think Go has some good features, nothing about it is more "modern" than Java except in the most literal chronological sense; Java is more modern in almost every other meaningful sense. While you may need to tune the VM for critical tasks, in Go you don't need to tune, but rather just run slower.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#326

Post by bunderbunder »

sl1ck731 wrote: post #307
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

I was never super into Java development. I started working in 2014 and was introduced to Weblogic, Jenkins, huge Maven POMs and all the rest, then went into Cloud consulting. When I sit down to do anything I get so wrapped up in all the stuff that comes along with Java and feel like I have to use some huge IDE like Eclipse (I hate) or IntelliJ (I If I could just write code and have a simple package manager like NPM o…

To a couple of those -

Compared to the other options, Gradle (IMO) significantly reduces the package & project management overhead. That said, it's still relatively high insofar as you are still asked to keep track of things like whether a dependency is needed at compile time, run time, or test time.

Java-the-language has a symbiotic relationship with heavyweight IDEs. The language's development is as influenced by the popularity of IDEs in its community every bit as much as the popularity of IDEs in its community is motivated by the language's characteristics. If you're looking for a good lightweight editor experience, I'd suggest looking at alternative JVM languages. Any of {Groovy, Clojure, Kotlin, Scala} will give you a better non-IDE experience while still giving you full access to the ecosystem. (That said, everyone still codes those in IntelliJ, too. It's still not gonna feel like working in Go.)

Lastly, it's totally OK to tune out the ecosystem when you don't need to be plugged into it. Yes, there are a bazillion JSON libraries out there. And you can easily spend more time and energy agonizing over their differences than you could possibly save by choosing the right one. Similarly, go ahead and ignore Spring. The whole Spring Experience™ is designed around developing applications a certain way. If you like to develop applications that way, you will know in your soul that Spring is right for you, and be attracted to it like a cat to an open can of tuna, and you would already have been a deeply devoted Java developer for years now.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#327

Post by Deinumite »

sl1ck731 wrote: post #307
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

I was never super into Java development. I started working in 2014 and was introduced to Weblogic, Jenkins, huge Maven POMs and all the rest, then went into Cloud consulting. When I sit down to do anything I get so wrapped up in all the stuff that comes along with Java and feel like I have to use some huge IDE like Eclipse (I hate) or IntelliJ (I If I could just write code and have a simple package manager like NPM o…

Try a Spring Boot app using Gradle as the build tool.

Weblogic and all those app servers were a product of a different time. They solve problems that are largely solved other ways now (you could argue for some of their features). Spring Boot ships the web server in the application which is more akin to Rails, node etc.

Maven itself is also showing its age (its 1.0 release was 2004). I won't say that most of the industry has moved to Gradle, because the truth is so many workflows and projects are using Maven that it will be around for a long time. The good thing is that other build tools like Gradle, SBT etc. interop with maven the package repo just fine.

There is nothing stopping you from developing Java in vim. Syntastic and other plugins will help though.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#328

Post by kiriakasis »

btilly wrote: post #289
wilsonnb3 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think is true anymore. The .net 5 announcement was very clear that .net core is the future and its been a while since you’ve had needed things that are windows only to build a non-trivial .net core application.

Please double check my wording. Yes, you can write a non-trivial .NET application on Linux. But if you take a non-trivial .NET application that runs on Windows, the odds are low that it can easily be ported to Linux. And there are almost no non-trivial .NET applications that weren't originally written for Windows. The result is that if you work with .NET, you're going to be pushed towards Windows.

It the wording of the announcement (taking them in good faith) that applies to applications using .NET Framework. .NET Core should be 100% portable to Linux/Mac/wasm.

.NET 5 should supersede both Core and Framework IIRC

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#329

Post by js2 »

pdpi wrote: post #323
sl1ck731 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was never super into Java development. I started working in 2014 and was introduced to Weblogic, Jenkins, huge Maven POMs and all the rest, then went into Cloud consulting. When I sit down to do anything I get so wrapped up in all the stuff that comes along with Java and feel like I have to use some huge IDE like Eclipse (I hate) or IntelliJ (I If I could just write code and have a simple package manager like NPM o…

Java-the-language is a fairly crummy thing to work with, it’s Java-the-ecosystem that’s genuinely good — the JVM, the tooling, etc etc. The quality of IDEs available is definitely a very large component of that. Doing Java on a lightweight editor seems like a way to pay the price without reaping the benefits.

I use TextMate (!) to maintain an Android SDK that's a mix of Java, C and C++ avoiding Android Studio like the plague, to maintain an iOS SDK that's mostly Objective-C, similarly avoiding Xcode's editor, and to maintain the backend written in Python that these SDK's talk to. I've got enough going on in my head w/o having to deal with the complexity of two different IDEs.

Anyway, for me Java-the-language is fine. The tooling, at least as it comes with Android (looking at you gradle and all its Android plugins) is what makes me want to pull my hair out.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#330

Post by Deinumite »

tomohawk wrote: post #265
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

It takes a lot of power to push something that large. A lot of brain power to grock the ecosystem. Outside of the Java bubble, the view is quite a bit different. All that sophistication looks like a wasted effort. Take something as simple as admining the garbage collector. Java has a big selection of GCs, and each has their bunch of knobs for tuning. And you have to pay attention to that stuff. After working with Go…

I'm not saying I disagree but for a lot of businesses (even one with relatively high traffic) it is not unheard of to deploy with almost no tuning of the GC (aside from setting a heap min / max of 2,4,8GB) and have no issues.
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