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IT Runs on Java 8

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Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#261

Post by dlandis »

pron wrote: post #207
dlandis wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So Java is not only the safe choice for serious server-side software; it's also the bleeding edge. Sure for core Java (OpenJDK), but what the future of JEE licensing and development? Even non-"enterprise" apps typically make use of some JEE stuff like servlets and JDBC. Is it really the "safe" choice when, apparently, the trademark agreements have just fallen apart? https://headcrashing.wordpress.com/2019/05/03/neg…

I know little about EE (and I'm certainly not speaking for anyone but myself), but I believe Java EE has lost dominance not because of any corporate decision, but because it simply started losing ground to unstandardized open source projects [1], as opposed to EE's JCP. So people who liked EE wanted to ditch the slow-moving JCP in favor of a faster process, and one question was whether the new project will be able to…

> You also need to realize that it wasn't a negotiation between Oracle and some grassroot project, but among multi-billion-dollar corporations, some of whom have fought Java standards for over a decade, so the process was both legally and politically complex.

Yes exactly, I think that is what makes if feel like not the safest choice for many companies.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#262

Post by MaxBarraclough »

kllrnohj wrote: post #226
ksec wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. AOT used to be bag of hurt with GCJ ( I know I could use Excelsior, not sure if it was free in my time though ), but now even that will be an supported option from Graal. Java the languages still isn't pretty, but it has been much improved. OpenJDK is GPL and apart form the trademark ( ? )…

> Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. Value types are a major missing piece in the JVM stack right now. It's at least on the roadmap, but it keeps getting pushed back and back and back. I'd also argue runtime generics is another one, and perhaps more depressingly one that is unlikely to ever get fixed. .NET has both of them and al…

> the actual language & core libraries are incredibly slow to react to anything.

async/await being the obvious example. Still no sign of it in the Java language, nor any expectation of it, unless I missed something.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#263

Post by btilly »

chc wrote: post #240
microcolonel wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> copywritten copyrighted "Copywritten" probably means nothing, but if it did, it would have something to with copy writing, the act of writing for publication (usually commercial, usually not long-form). Added: FYI "copyrighting" is not a conscious decision, or an action you can take. Copyright emerges automatically when you create a work, what they've done is defend their copyright in court, and the courts have mix…

That is a gross mischaracterization of what Oracle did. They didn't just defend a copyright in court. They pushed to extend copyright to a mostly functional element that copyright law has not traditionally been thought to cover. It's a tremendously harmful viewpoint for interoperability.

Not just "not traditionally been thought to cover", but which existing precedent said DID NOT cover.

Does it surprise anyone that this case was decided by the Federal Circuit? The rogue court most consistently overturned by the Supreme Court, which also is responsible for most of the disastrous software patent cases out there.

The only bright light is that the Supreme Court has reopened the question. Given how often they overturn the Federal Circuit, we have real hope that we'll return to the previous precedent. Which is that since matching APIs is a functional part of how code works, and things that are functional are by law not copyrightable, APIs are not copyrightable.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#264

Post by TallGuyShort »

torbjorn wrote: post #5

IT runs on Java 8. IT in 2030 will not run on Java 8.

Plenty of enterprise technologies have lasted more than 16 years. People are still paying good money to get help with software that's been running since the 60's. Less IT will be running on Java 8 by 2030. Maybe.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#265

Post by tomohawk »

pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

It takes a lot of power to push something that large. A lot of brain power to grock the ecosystem.

Outside of the Java bubble, the view is quite a bit different.

All that sophistication looks like a wasted effort.

Take something as simple as admining the garbage collector. Java has a big selection of GCs, and each has their bunch of knobs for tuning. And you have to pay attention to that stuff.

After working with Go for several years, at large scale, we never once had to touch any knobs for GC. We could focus on better things. Any of the Java stuff we deploy and deal with we have this extra worry and maintenance issue.

And that's just the GC.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#266

Post by stevetodd »

acomjean wrote: post #260
ksec wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. AOT used to be bag of hurt with GCJ ( I know I could use Excelsior, not sure if it was free in my time though ), but now even that will be an supported option from Graal. Java the languages still isn't pretty, but it has been much improved. OpenJDK is GPL and apart form the trademark ( ? )…

I like java. Java 8 streams are particularly interesting. Its fast too. I took a hadoop class (which taught java 8 and ironically discouraged hadoop use excepting exceptional cases..). The hardest part that everyone struggled with was getting a Java environment up and running. Gradle, maven, ant... You almost need and IDE. Its almost like they don't want people using it. I stopped when I didn't have too. Plus the acr…

It’s funny, I feel the same way about web development right now.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#267

Post by an_account_name »

bsaul wrote: post #92

Fun story : i had to develop the same system for two different companies, one a startup with 3 employees (the founders) , the other a billion dollar business. Just a backend api & web interface, together with an iOS app displaying the content. I could use shiny new tech for the startup (which at the time was python on app engine and its nosql datastore, with a backbone.js framework), whereas the other one forced me t…

What was the relative scale of the two systems?

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#268

Post by gerbilly »

tomohawk wrote: post #265
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

It takes a lot of power to push something that large. A lot of brain power to grock the ecosystem. Outside of the Java bubble, the view is quite a bit different. All that sophistication looks like a wasted effort. Take something as simple as admining the garbage collector. Java has a big selection of GCs, and each has their bunch of knobs for tuning. And you have to pay attention to that stuff. After working with Go…

> Java has a big selection of GCs, and each has their bunch of knobs for tuning. And you have to pay attention to that stuff.

You never have to touch them in the Java world either, unless you like making performance worse that is.

I've never ever seen a case where fiddling with garbage collection parameters didn't make things slower.

I worked with a guy who worked on a popular java compiler, and he says the same thing. he never twiddles GC parameters either.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#269

Post by erik_seaberg »

tomohawk wrote: post #265
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

It takes a lot of power to push something that large. A lot of brain power to grock the ecosystem. Outside of the Java bubble, the view is quite a bit different. All that sophistication looks like a wasted effort. Take something as simple as admining the garbage collector. Java has a big selection of GCs, and each has their bunch of knobs for tuning. And you have to pay attention to that stuff. After working with Go…

Tuning GC is hard, and the nondeterminism is worrisome, but hitting a pathological case and rewriting a bunch of code hoping to avoid it is even harder.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#270

Post by gerbilly »

0db532a0 wrote: post #203
lenkite wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JDBC is not JEE - it is core Java. Servlets are the original web-container Java spec, independent of JEE. Both are great specs supported by several stable and performant implementations - rock solid tech compared to a lot of the flaky stuff you find advertised today.

How are Java programmers implementing RESTFUL APIs these days?

https://www.dropwizard.io/

Quoting from the site: Dropwizard is a Java framework for developing ops-friendly, high-performance, RESTful web services.

It's a nice microframework which comes with built in health-checks, and metrics and it's also ops friendly because it deploys as a single JAR file.

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